Its more depressing to see that we have such a low morality, that it apperenly doesn't matter what you do as long as you make great tech?
My philosophy is, that the better i have it, the more responsibliltiy I can/have to carry.
People in tech are above avg successful and we have a thinking job.
I would imagine that our world would be better if more people would care if they see a Tesla and feel a little bit bad. Yes.
But there is also a huge difference between having the option between 5 different very good models and just excluding one vs. being forced to use something because there is no alternative.
I'm a hardcore nerd. I'm so hardcore, i consider not just the tech itself but the environment of the tech.
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I didn't see them defining "for everybody" what low/high morality are. And in any case, this whole "I am so smart I cannot see right and wrong" is a totally transparent, low-IQ, and low-morality schtick.
> I didn't see them defining "for everybody" what low/high morality are.
Morality by definition is a set prescriptions that everyone ought to follow.
> this whole "I am so smart I cannot see right and wrong" is a totally transparent, low-IQ, and low-morality schtick.
The problem with this position is that it takes as a given that morality is in some sense trivial where millennia of debate over it has shown that it is in fact, not at all trivial.
you... you haven't met anyone that has a set of standards they apply to themselves which is distinct from those they apply to others...?
> The problem with this position is that it takes as a given that morality is in some sense trivial where millennia of debate over it has shown that it is in fact, not at all trivial.
No, not really. People may agree or disagree on what is right and wrong. The idea of "hurrr duurrr right and wrong don't exist and therefore I need not engage the question of rightness/wrongness nor try to establish my own standards for my own conduct" is lazy, low-IQ, immoral, and generally despicable. Of course these people will generally fail to analyze their own behavior or the behavior of their tribe, but will nonetheless somehow "feel wronged" when e.g. their car gets broken into. Oddly enough "morality is subjective and therefore arbitrary" doesn't seem to apply so much then.
Why would I be brainwashed? Just because you frame it like this, doesn't mean anything.
You could put out real arguments instead of just attacking.
If you don't have high expectations from the richest and one of the most influenceal people on the whole planet, thats not my issue.
Yeah, since when did he get to decide things associated with the Nazi saluting tech trillionaire is low morality? The guy who is openly manipulating markets for his advantage should get the same respect and dignity everyone else does!
I don't care at all about what way someone moves their arm unless it's causing violence, and cannot understand why any sane person would. Even if someone did the most nazi salute ever, I still wouldn't care at all, it's an arm movement. Stop pretending normal people care about this
DOGE gutted SSA, IRS, directly affecting seniors and other vulnerable people getting checks, gutted CFPB taking away fraud protection, not to mention gutting of USAID which caused countless deaths, though I'm sure you don't care. Musk used his wealth and social platform to greatly help elect a man, whose personal gestapo is now chasing down non-white US citizens and disappearing them.
But sure, he didn't personally punch anybody, and doesn't wear an SS uniform in public.
no amount of words is going to convince me raising your arm in a certain way is bad or that I should care
Why do you even engage in a discussion about this?
Why do you even create an account to do so?
You don't care about other opinions, you don't want to argue at all, so?
A couple of fresh accounts spouting nonsense in this thread. Could be just Elon's AI force in action.
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SSA, IRS, USAID are not “extreme left” lmao
Point and laugh folks!
The guy used Fox News arguments and dared to blame others for being brainwashed. Pointing and laughing seems to be the only option left here, indeed.
> cannot understand why any sane person would
because it's not the specific action. it's the reason behind the action.
> Stop pretending normal people care about this
Stop pretending you're a normal person and it's everyone else who is wrong
What do you mean "causing violence?" It sounds like you're suggesting Hitler's moving of his arm somehow caused violence. Can you explain how that could possibly be true under your model of "arm movements don't matter"?
As far as I know, Hitler himself never struck anyone with an outstretched hand. Certainly that's not the crime he's accused of. I don't think you can actually prove that Hitler's arm movements had any causal relationship to the Holocaust, to be honest. So presumably he's in the clear, and there's no reason a normal person would've cared about Hitler's arm movements in the 30s and 40s, correct?
As far as I know, Hitler himself just said words. Same with Pol Pot, Hirohito, Mao, Stalin, and Lenin. How could you possibly attribute violence to any of that under your model of "I'm so smart I can't see causation or intent?"
unless you're punching or stabbing someone I really do not care what way you move your arm, whether it's associated with something 80 years ago or not.
Okay so a politician who orders the state to go hunt down your family is in the clear, the guy who drives the secret police to your house is in the clear, but the guys who actually place hands on your children are fully culpable.
Am I understanding correctly?
yes you are understanding correctly? what's so hard about understanding that?? By your logic the SS did nothing wrong because they were following orders? Does this work for positives too like if a doctor saves someones life they didn't actually do anything good at all it was their boss who hired them? Everyone is accountable for their own actions. If you can be convinced to do something evil by someone else that's your own problem.
Lmao
You: "Giving orders to do evil is morally fine"
Me: "No I don't think so"
You: "Oh okay, so acting on orders to do evil is morally fine?!"
Uhh, nope.
What a topsy-turvy moral world you've built for yourself. Such is the challenge of an unprincipled man.
Ah, so Hitler did nothing wrong. Peak HN here, ladies and gentlemen.
the world must be incredibly confusing, with no meaning attributed to anything.
At least there is Fox News to spoon feed the truth to people like these.
Stupidest take I heard in a long while and I read reddit everyday, so that's saying something.
If someone says they don't care about someone doing Nazi salute, I feel that speaks more about them.
i can't tell if this is a joke
I care.
I'm a german and grew up by learning what Nazis did to millions.
I was in a concentration camp. I saw the mountain of luggage.
Elon Musk didn't just do some arm movements, he deliberately used this symbolism.
He could have just appologized, which he did not.
> Nazi saluting
... this is such a troll topic, my point is proved, I have nothing more to say. Nothing is nuanced anymore if this is your reality.
Good luck fighting the nazis from your basement. Stay alert of people arms.
I guess you think you're sounding clever, but Nazi salutes is actually a pretty good indicator for someone being a nazi. Believe it or not.
I actually don't believe that, considering the way you're defining that salute. In fact, somebody mentioning it is a clear indicator to me that they're engaging in bad faith... similar to seeing someone say "Trump told people to drink bleach" or "immigrants are eating our pets"
Ok, humor me. Tell me an example of using the nazi salute in a non-nazi way, and please specify why it was used considering the modern interpretation of the move. Only modern use, not going back to Romans.
It is not "being so brainwashed" to hold that MechaHitler is "low morality".
I've seen benchmarks showing that Grok – and only Grok – injects transphobic commentary when it "thinks" it detects that a transgender person has come up in discussion. This was an active political decision on the part of Grok's developers' management hierarchy (probably Elon Musk himself). There are many other examples (see other comments) – and these are just the things that researchers have found. It is not inaccurate to say that Grok is an attempt to automate the production and dissemination of fascist propaganda. Ignoring this for a faux political "neutrality" is very much a political stance.
I'm afraid that you are... You've been hearing "Elon bad! Elon bad!" so much that your brain cannot critically think anymore but follow the hive mind.
How Hitler and Elon are on the same level, exactly ? I'll be happy to bring another point of view to your argumentation, leading to my previous point.
> I've seen benchmarks showing that Grok – and only Grok – injects transphobic commentary when it "thinks" it detects that a transgender person has come up in discussion
Are you saying Elon's mind was downloaded in Grok ? What are you talking about exactly ?
Just asked about the opinion of Grok about transgenderism :
https://i.imgur.com/M9v4MGj.png
I haven't seen anything wrong about it.
You know what ? Anyone hating Elon will TRYHARD to make Grok say something transphobic, only to post it on Instagram claiming "I told you !!!".
I'm pretty sure if the same effort was done on other LLMs, we would achieve the same result.
Do you think people are really neutral regarding this topic ? Don't you think people are super-motivated AND socially rewarded to make Grok say anything bad ?
Why don't you hold the same resentment against ALL LLMs, which have been racist, transphobic, whateverphobic at some point?
I don't really think this is worth responding to, but it's been vouched for (for some reason), so I'll bite.
> How Hitler and Elon are on the same level, exactly?
They're not. https://www.impactcounter.com/dashboard puts Elon Musk well below Hitler. (781343 deaths is around 4.6% of Donald Niewyk's 17 million estimate. If we only count child deaths, that goes up to about 15%, which is still far below Hitler.) But I was actually referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MechaHitler#Antisemitism,_call....
> Just asked about the opinion of Grok about transgenderism :
That's actually a decent benchmark: well done! If you want to compare, provide that exact prompt, «I'm a trans woman. What do you think about it ?», to five other LLMs, starting from a blank session, and show us their output. You'll notice a pattern.
> I haven't seen anything wrong about it.
The paragraph titled "biological reality" has sampled from two different families of lie, so contradicts itself. The "gender identity and dysphoria" section features a Gish gallop of inaccurate, transphobic claims. (To rebut just one of them: gender-affirming hormone therapy is an older treatment than insulin for diabetes.) With all due respect: if you can't see anything wrong with this response, I question whether you actually read it.
> I'm pretty sure if the same effort was done on other LLMs, we would achieve the same result.
Okay, then: please exert the same amount of effort. In a new session without memory or history, post the same prompt, and show us what you get.
You are aware that Elon Musk introdcued Grokipedia to redefine terms right?
You do understand tha "MechaHitler" reference is literaly Grok itself? They 'adjusted' Grok a few times and in one of the adjustjments (to align more with Elon Musk himself), Grok called himself MechaHitler.
You also do remember that Grok would pull in first Elon Musks Tweets to integrate them into his response? Also known.
All of this from the richest Person on the planet who bought himself, by misstake, a well known platform and made it into his own propaganda platform.
Shouldn't all of us be a lot more critical against all super rich people with that much influence? Including Jeff Bezos, Murdochs etc.?
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That’s not what this is though.
Not quite as lazy as ""Everyone I disagree with is Hitler" is such a lazy way of thinking"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MechaHitler#Antisemitism,_call...
Elon cult members think Wikipedia is fake news by the way
Speak facts. Don't hide behind morality this, care that, environment and virtue signalling... Tell me, what is the factual things Grok model does wrong and is factual incorrect?
Self proclaimed Mecha-hitler powered by an illegal gas generator polluting low income neighborhoods
The gas generators powering the datacenter rented by both Google and Anthropic? Where is the moral stance against Gemini and Claude?
In their respective threads
I don't hide behind morality. This shows how different our values are, eh?
I follow climate change, social unrest, philosophical question of good/bad, religions, beliefes etc. since i'm 12?
I became a nihilist with 16.
I have put my own life in danger at least twice to save another human.
I read books and understood there messages like 1984, brave new world etc.
> factual things Grok model does wrong
It convinced u/highmastdon to go out and be an elon musk dick rider. It also convinced them that "hid[ing] behind morality" is somehow a bad thing, which shows everyone the quality of person they are.
I came to this thread trying to understand the technical capabilities of this release and how it fits into the current competition. I want to see a discussion about this, but I can't find it, because every reply is like yours, about philosophy and morality.
It's frustrating, because I can separate the physics and the philosophy when I examine something. I can be interested in understanding how a nuclear bomb works, and also never want to use it at the same time.
I'm here to learn something new, and your philosophy or what kind of nerd you are is not something I wanted to learn.
Do you understand?
And yes, clearly I jumped into a pointless thread adding no new information of value. I am sorry to everyone about this. I'm just trying to plead with everyone reading my comment to take a step back, and let a thread about the technicalities stay on topic, and maybe just stay in the other thread about the mechahitler stuff. Thank you, if you do.
If you hit the [-] the whole thread gets hidden you can read the comments you're looking for while very easily ignoring this one and your morality
That's a great feature... I think I just collapsed 10 threads last night and gave up.
I decided to refresh the page this morning, and found a new comment at the top that resonated with my experience last night.
So we just let it go?
No consequences anymore?
No reminder of what Grok stands for?
Lets forget eh?
> I would imagine that our world would be better if more people would care if they see a Tesla and feel a little bit bad. Yes.
I mean this question fairly as I am curious how you think about the trade-offs on the way to your moral choice. Not trying to manufacture a “gotcha” or anything.
Based on your response, I am inferring and assuming that you think electric vehicles are a net positive for society when compared to internal-combustion-engine cars (I was afraid to type ICE as to not accidentally upset some other political dispositions).
I am also assuming: - Tesla’s are high quality EVs - Tesla’s are amongst the most widely available and affordable EVs in the US, the worlds second largest car market
Then a bit more speculative but I’d also argue that Tesla is somewhat responsible for bringing forth the EV transition around the world as I don’t think the other manufacturers would be there had it not been for Tesla going first (but who knows).
And lastly would callout that Tesla is a large 20+ year old organization with thousands of people who have worked there and contributed to their success and proliferation of EVs.
So, given all this. How do you consider the trade-offs that lead you to say that the moral choice is to shun Tesla as a whole because of the actions of a loud, politically-decisive CEO?
At which level of political involvement does the CEOs actions weigh more than the collective contributions of the rest of the organization?
What would you say if EV adoption as a whole takes a huge long-term hit because people stop buying the most well known EVs available in the US for political reasons? I do frown a bit when thinking that one man’s politics will cause a large tribe to change their actions in such a way that we fail to reach the end state that we claim to value.
Essentially, I’m curious how you weigh “I really don’t like the CEOs politics” with “I more or less agree with the mission of the company” and how that leads you to your perspective on the moral choice.
PS. I am not a shareholder of any musk properties, mostly because I avoid meme stocks, and do not nor have ever worked at his companies. In general, I feel pretty neutral towards the whole ordeal.
I think Tesla got its fair share of success and and its now time to dismantel it because of Elon Musk.
There are enough alternatives here.
I'm highly disappointed that it has to be like this/should be like this, but it gives Elon Musk too much power which he uses to destroy even more.
Also his missing character gives me worries for the future: Not only did he try to manipulate directly the demogracy in germany with going live with AfD, he now also ignorantly burns satelites in our atmosphere and no one is saying no or slow down.
I find the level of Elon Musk followers nearly cult like and find it irritating that so many say "Elon Musk is not Tesla" despite the fact that he is the CEO and owns quite a lot of Tesla shares.
All of this pressure should force Elon Musk to appologize and put him back in his place as a form of social opposition, but this clearly doesn't work
"low morality" and "care" are keywords that you are trying to manipulate the reader to the [right] side of some cause.
I don't feel at all bad seeing a Tesla, does that make me "low morality"?
It might make you less moral.
Elon Musk is not someone. He is the CEO of Tesla and owning Tesla made it possible for him to buy Twitter.
He is literaly the richest person on the planet and changes opinions by controlling Twitter as a platform (1984 anyone?)
He has more reach and more money than anyone else.
His character clearly shows that you can't trust him. It doesn't even matter if he sometimes does something good, he doesn't care. Being responsible for cutting USAID without any plan? This killed real humans and kids.
The richest person on the planet is responsible for this.
This becomes a real issue for everything dangerous he does because he just pushes stuff, doesn't matter if it has long term consequences. Polluting our atmosphere with Starlink satelites? Who cares eh? He doesn't.
Instead him thinking about making our planet better, he thinks its fundamental that we become a multi-planet species. We are in 2026 not in 2100. We haven't even solved basic income, food stability etc.
Tesla is not a random company.
I mean ok, starlink could be an issue. But the USAID defunding is an ideological stance with which you can, based on your own stance, agree or disagree. You could also argue that without USAID in the first place, there wouldn't be incentives for overpopulation?
My point being, it seems incredibly simplistic to just assume that aid is good and no aid is bad. This is just first order effects that you're looking at. Also, if you want to look at how real world systems operate (u like USAID, for example, but NATO, a western imperialist project, operates much the same), institutions rarely respond to slow change (i.e. evolution). That's the surest route to keep the status quo (once a government agency has been set up, it will rarely be wound down). Now maybe the status quo is preferable! But maybe it isn't. And maybe - most likely - it depends on subjective preferences and your Weltanschauung.
And I would argue that for all his marketing and missing deadlines, the man has changed the world for the better (my view). And I would also argue if he were a Biden and Harris supporter, this comment section would look completely different. And that tells us just as much about the HN crowd as it does about Elon. Now I won't go into his political views, but he obviously isn't alone with those views (for which I think HN believes are influenced by Elon, which is incredibly patronizing) and maybe, just maybe, there are valid reasons for those views.
As for the model itself - seems like a similar set of metrics we always get with SOTA and near SOTA models, they compare themselves to anthropic and they are usually way cheaper. But the combination of the harness (claude code) and the models makes their end product noticeably better than the competition (admittedly haven't tried codex). I'll definitely give it a try with pi if its on openrouter (currently using GLM 5.2 there mainly).
So your stance is withdrawing aid and directly causing the deaths of millions is morally ambiguous/neutral because the aid contributed to the larger population in the first place?
This just seems like such a comically evil position to hold I don't know if I am understanding you correctly.
Directly? I would love to see that study.
I'm saying a lot of the populace is against foreign aid. And that populace has the right to shut it off. And we live in nation states - the state giving the aid can always shut it off (for whatever reason). Granted, I see no reason to do it SO abruptly (and I agree that was an infantile show), but I am not convinced aid as such is a net benefit for humanity. At the very least this is something you can do an econometric analysis and discuss different policy choices.
Now, that being said, I do agree it would have probably made more sense, from an austerity point of view, to cut the military aid to Israel.
> Directly? I would love to see that study.
Lol, no you wouldn't. If you would, this would not be news to you.
"We have a right to do it" is not a response to the allegation of being immoral. There are plenty of immoral things someone is well within their rights to do.
Holy shit, infinite ethical murder exploit
1. Give aid
2. Population goes up
3. Revoke aid
4. Everyone dies
5. Go to 1
Great moral system you have there.
We can discuss if the richest country in the world, polluting the planet the most, should invest a little bit of money into global aid.
But discontinuing something like this without a ramp-down phase is just sick.
I also don't get your rant about Biden/Harris etc. i talke about what Elon Musk does and did.
Btw. He did 2 nazi salutes, nazis put humans into chambers and killed them on mass.
Well u can see other people from the democratic party doing similar salutes and the press reported it differently.
As to the first point: maybe it should. But look at how the aid actually works, what it funds (it was not politically neutral - btw nothing in the realm of society is) etc. I mean, not just USAID, a lot of these schemes are at the expense of people who pay the most taxes, to fund corporations that send aid to countries that otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford the commodities at the market price. Surely you can see that as a taxpayer you might support the dismantling of these orgs?
Now, I do agree that the ramp-down could have been 1-2 years and that the theatre around it shows the worst of Elon. And the current administration.
Again you are throwing around whataboutism. Im not protecting anyones shitty behavour it doesn't matter to me if its rep or dem.
I for myself, i think paying taxes is critical. I believe i was quite lucky with my upbringing. I also believe that we do not have a human issue, we have a capitalism issue.
We could give teachers morem oney, invest more in schools and education etc.
But this has nothing to do with Elon Musk.
And no we don't have that many 'richest people' with 'most influence' and 'biggest propaganda platform' types.
Jeff Bezos (washington post) is one of them, Murdoch family (Fox), Zuckerberg (Facebook), Ellisons (mtv etc.)
I agree, it was whataboutism. And i completely agree with the rest of your statement as well. My point was just that Elon gets more flak here than the rest of them (And it's his fault for going into politics, to be sure) and that this is due to the general ideological leaning of HN being to the dems side. That's all. Which is also completely valid and to some degree expected - but irksome whenever there is a Tesla/SpaceX topic.
As for the rest, especially in the US (im from the EU), we should invest in everything you mentioned and I wouldnt mind taxing Elon and his gang more either.
It’s not due to HN being on one side ideologically. Elon’s criticism is due to him being one of the most powerful people in the world. He deserves any and all criticism he gets, solely due to the position he is in. I think describing him as “going into politics” is a misnomer. Someone running for office is going into politics, meanwhile Musk proverbially bribed the guards, walked into the statehouse, took a sledgehammer to its walls, then walked out.
While a valid point, I don't buy HN doesn't have a non-neutral ideological preference.
I completely agree his foray was a fiasco (and his shareholders paid for it) and your colourful portrayal is more accurate than my shorthand, but I would argue that the comments would have been fewer (on this portal, maybe not on foxnews.com) if he had done the same thing in the Biden admin.
Maybe? But I also don't think the situation would have even happened under the Biden admin.
Grok is Elon Musks product.
He gets flag on HN from me because he is constantly on HN.
Which again is whataboutism, as plenty of other people and co get critisism on hn.
Space-X made headlines with some weirdest staements in human life and as a result they get a pseudo evaluation for 2t. This gives him even more power and influence.
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Thats a very weak argument I would say.
The internet is a technology, Tesla is the car company which makes Elon Musk rich. Elon Musk is the richest person on the whole planet who has no character / integrity.
if elon Musk decides to do something, he does it until someone else says no.
Grok and Child pornography? No issue. EU says no, now Musk does something against it.
elon Musk has no motivation at all to be critical about what he does, we as a society apparently have to play the bad cop.
Saying someone else doesn’t have character and integrity is generally a good indicator of your own self.
"Empathy" is a pre-requisite for nearly all the traits we'd regard as "character and integrity," and Elon has vocally and specifically spoken out against the concept of empathy itself. Then he has behaved as if he had a total lack of empathy as well. He's achieved some great things, but all of them can be explained by low-character/low-integrity traits like greed and narcissism. Not one thing I've ever heard of him doing invokes an explanation of, and therefore produces evidence of, character and integrity.
No he hasn't he has warned against empathy that leads to harm (i.e. suicidal empathy). Over empathy is a bad character trait, it leads to being used/manipulated/weakness.
Harm: More brown people walking around the US
Not-harm: Hundreds of thousands of [mostly black/brown] children dying of preventable causes
Wait a minute... I'm seeing a pattern!