> That will make a lot of businesses focus on success here and not somewhere else.
You have a weird definition of theft. We're talking about nationalizing them instead of handing their shareholders a bunch of free money to bail them out. Not getting free money is theft now?
But, more broadly: there's more to the social contract than private property rights. And it's really hard to bring myself to care too much about the private property rights of entities who have shown themselves to not be very respectful of that contract.
We're explicitly talking about a situation where BigTech and AI labs ask the government for money or (very hypothetically) allow coordinated defaults to spill out into the banking fabric
In those cases, the economy and society you want to externalises losses onto has every right to negotiate something in return. We are not in the business of just forgiving multi billion debts.
> Some people find authoritarian despotism attractive as long as it targets their perceived enemies
It's not that simple. For instance: a prison sentence is "authoritarian despotism" from the perspective of a murderer subject to it (or his apologists).
Most on the left would consider it authoritarian despotism if Trump started "Confiscating" companies. Most on the right would consider it the same if Biden or whomever did the same.
In general, the US has strong opposition to the state unilaterally confiscating companies, and it is the kind of thing seen in Nazi Germany, revolutionary Cuba and Iran, or the Islamic state.
The last time the US government tried this was steel mills under Truman in 1952, and that was with compensation and struck down by the SCOTUS.
> Most on the left would consider it authoritarian despotism if Trump started "Confiscating" companies. Most on the right would consider it the same if Biden or whomever did the same.
Eh. I disagree. It really depends on the company, the why, and what's done with it afterwards.
If the other party nationalized the big frontier labs or AI data center operators, with the rationale that AI is just too disruptive to privatize the gains and/or the companies are acting recklessly, I wouldn't consider it "authoritarian despotism," and I don't think many others would either: those companies are unpopular across the political spectrum.
There's a certain amount of reflexive opposition to "the other side," in that some people will oppose anything it does, but that's just really dumb, so I wouldn't read too much into it on any particular issue.
Now, if the Democrats confiscated "The Trump Organization" on some flimsy rationale because they really hate Trump, that particular action would be seen as you describe.
> In general, the US has strong opposition to the state unilaterally confiscating companies
Thankfully, things can change.
> and it is the kind of thing seen in Nazi Germany, revolutionary Cuba and Iran, or the Islamic state.
That's a dumb argument. "Confiscating companies" is not the reason those regimes are considered bad. And the fact they did some particular thing is irrelevant. I'm sure they also penalize murder, and your not going to get me to question my opposition to murder by saying "the Nazis had anti-murder laws!"
nobody said that was the reason they were bad. that's a dumb interpretation.
The point is that seizing companies simply because you have the army and popular support to do so indicates that the government has abandoned respect for law, rights, process, and reason.
It is precisely the authoritarian behavior that defines an authoritarian regime - Taking companies or people with flimsy pretext because they can get away with it. Citizens who cheer and hope for such things are cheering for populist law of the jungle.
If someone is genuinely concerned about safety or disruption, there are 101 legal and boring options the government can take. Those just dont stimulate the the same petty emotions.
Is it "theft" when someone who pays off another's loans takes legal possession of the debtor's assets as compensation? Or only when the government does it?
> So, theft. Got it!
> That will make a lot of businesses focus on success here and not somewhere else.
You have a weird definition of theft. We're talking about nationalizing them instead of handing their shareholders a bunch of free money to bail them out. Not getting free money is theft now?
But, more broadly: there's more to the social contract than private property rights. And it's really hard to bring myself to care too much about the private property rights of entities who have shown themselves to not be very respectful of that contract.
Yes, it is theft.
If you dont want to provide a loan, fine. I dont see how you justify seizing the company.
Imagine asking the bank for a loan and they say "no, and we are also taking your car".
We're explicitly talking about a situation where BigTech and AI labs ask the government for money or (very hypothetically) allow coordinated defaults to spill out into the banking fabric
In those cases, the economy and society you want to externalises losses onto has every right to negotiate something in return. We are not in the business of just forgiving multi billion debts.
That is not the proposal. Negotiation is fine. Forced taking is not.
>Not loans, not bail outs. Confiscate and figure out how to wind them down in a way that benefits the taxpayers.
Some people find authoritarian despotism attractive as long as it targets their perceived enemies
> Some people find authoritarian despotism attractive as long as it targets their perceived enemies
It's not that simple. For instance: a prison sentence is "authoritarian despotism" from the perspective of a murderer subject to it (or his apologists).
I dont think it is that complex in this case.
Most on the left would consider it authoritarian despotism if Trump started "Confiscating" companies. Most on the right would consider it the same if Biden or whomever did the same.
In general, the US has strong opposition to the state unilaterally confiscating companies, and it is the kind of thing seen in Nazi Germany, revolutionary Cuba and Iran, or the Islamic state.
The last time the US government tried this was steel mills under Truman in 1952, and that was with compensation and struck down by the SCOTUS.
> Most on the left would consider it authoritarian despotism if Trump started "Confiscating" companies. Most on the right would consider it the same if Biden or whomever did the same.
Eh. I disagree. It really depends on the company, the why, and what's done with it afterwards.
If the other party nationalized the big frontier labs or AI data center operators, with the rationale that AI is just too disruptive to privatize the gains and/or the companies are acting recklessly, I wouldn't consider it "authoritarian despotism," and I don't think many others would either: those companies are unpopular across the political spectrum.
There's a certain amount of reflexive opposition to "the other side," in that some people will oppose anything it does, but that's just really dumb, so I wouldn't read too much into it on any particular issue.
Now, if the Democrats confiscated "The Trump Organization" on some flimsy rationale because they really hate Trump, that particular action would be seen as you describe.
> In general, the US has strong opposition to the state unilaterally confiscating companies
Thankfully, things can change.
> and it is the kind of thing seen in Nazi Germany, revolutionary Cuba and Iran, or the Islamic state.
That's a dumb argument. "Confiscating companies" is not the reason those regimes are considered bad. And the fact they did some particular thing is irrelevant. I'm sure they also penalize murder, and your not going to get me to question my opposition to murder by saying "the Nazis had anti-murder laws!"
> That's a dumb argument.
nobody said that was the reason they were bad. that's a dumb interpretation.
The point is that seizing companies simply because you have the army and popular support to do so indicates that the government has abandoned respect for law, rights, process, and reason.
It is precisely the authoritarian behavior that defines an authoritarian regime - Taking companies or people with flimsy pretext because they can get away with it. Citizens who cheer and hope for such things are cheering for populist law of the jungle.
If someone is genuinely concerned about safety or disruption, there are 101 legal and boring options the government can take. Those just dont stimulate the the same petty emotions.
The constitution requires paying fair market value whenever a company is nationalized. Theft would be unconstitutional.
Sounds like a reason not to advocate the government do such a thing.
The corporations getting a bunch of free money from my taxes is theft. If they can't keep themselves afloat then let them drown.
No handouts seems entirely reasonable.
I dont see how anyone extends that to the claim us government should forcibly be taking over companies.
The correct analogy is the bank securing the loan with the car, and then potentially repossessing that car.
Don't ask for a loan if you don't want a loan.
How do you get that analogy. The proposal was no loan and take instead
Except in this case they say "No loan for you. But give us your car and we'll give you the money to pay off your debts."
Is it "theft" when someone who pays off another's loans takes legal possession of the debtor's assets as compensation? Or only when the government does it?
You talking about taking a loan and not paying it off?