> The biggest problem, though, is how users are pushed into it without any warning or knowledge of what they're signing up for.
My irritation is that I know what it is, and I've said no thanks many times, but I'm still asked regularly by the likes of Amazon, and they usually pick a time when I'm trying to order something quick¹. It is one of the growing number of things in life that simply have no “no” option, it is always “yes or later” - I wouldn't mind so much if “later” meant “I know the option exists, I'll ask for it if I change my mind, don't bother me again otherwise”. Call me cynical, but if companies are trying to nag me into something I very much doubt the main benefit is mine. I'm sure there are many people out there who go along with it simply because they are sick of being asked repeatedly.
I also don't see the real benefit with the way things are often implemented anyway. When the credential recovery process is sending a magic email or text, making SMTP or SMS the weak link of the chain just as it often is for passwords so I'd be giving up my preferred workflows for no better security.
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[1] A short while ago I actually ordered from somewhere else because of this, bitter twit that I am. “I wonder if I can get this almost certainly drop-shipped item on next day delivery via Prime?”, [goes to Amazon to check], [get passkey prompt], “sod it, I'll go back to the original place”.
I dropped Amazon entirely a couple years ago because they didn't provide any way at all to separate my credit card from my kid's Fire tablet and I didn't want to be on the hook for thousands in charges because he pushed the wrong button. It's remarkably easy! It has made basically no change to my life except that I'm a little smug about not using Amazon.
What do you use instead? My main reason for using Amazon is the shipping which no one else can come close to
Same or next day shipping on most things I order is wild, when something goes beyond a 2-3 days on Amazon it even feels odd
And the “do you actually need the item/s that fast” isn’t the response I am looking for
Target/Walmart/BestBuy. They both have fast shipping options as well as store pickup. Sometimes (if you live somewhere more rural) they have _faster_ shipping times than Amazon.
I'm not in the US, but friends there tell me that Home Depot routinely delivers from the local store within a few hours.
(Here, unfortunately, their web site is useless crap.)
Walmart / Home Depot / Lowes / Kroger are generally going to beat Amazon on quickest delivery for most people for most items, if they want to, by virtue of their local brick and mortar footprint.
One reason I imagine Amazon pushed so hard for short delivery times was knowing eventually their legacy peers would leverage this against them.
Not to mention a long delivery time gives people more opportunity to simply go to the store and get something, while they’re out running other errands.
I live in a well populated suburban area. If I’m willing to actually leave my house, I can get most things much faster than Amazon can deliver them. This also helps keep those local businesses running, so shipping doesn’t become the only option in the future.
Shop.App doesn't have everything, but they do have a lot and many merchants have fast shipping options. I always try to search them and Newegg before trying Amazon.
Newegg marketplace is a funny place. Not only many items are more expensive than elsewhere, I had my orders delivered literally in Amazon or Walmart packaging. There are genuine merchants that made a choice to work with Newegg but there are many resellers from other stores as well.
Home Depot/Lowes often have faster delivery than Amazon (like literally delivered in a few hours or next day morning).
I live in the country. Amazon takes days to ship out here, though sometimes it has 1-2 day. Walmart has same day shipping (not delivery, regular shipping) and is cheaper or comparable to Amazon.
Could you create a separate account for the tablet without that credit card? Just curious.
but then how do you pay for things if/when you want to buy the little one something?
you either add the card then remove it, get a separate card, or find a way to use credits somehow -- but in the case of the latter two, Junior could still slam a few buttons and eat up all available funds on that card -- just without the impact of your regular card.
This is something that Apple really got right. My kids can initiate any kind of purchase they want (At least, those that are allowed based on Screen Time controls) but every purchase stops and waits for approval from me or my wife. Even if the item is free. No faffing about with credits, or extra cards, or setting limits.
privacy.com lets you generate credit card numbers on the fly
Just use a bank with a decent service (like Revolut), create a separate card number for your kid (10s within the bank app), where you put more money when needed and can easily put the number on hold or activate it whenever you please.
Like this Revolut?
https://cybernews.com/security/revolut-data-breach-75-millio...
> After the publication went live, Revolut reassured that the review is still ongoing. "We have so far still found no indications of any breach."
> "We have checked the user and card identifiers contained in the alleged records against our systems, and none of them correspond to valid or genuine Revolut identifiers," the spokesperson said.
A bank that cannot be used in the browser has no decent service.
The parent had a practical problem. I told him what kind of simple banking feature would easily solve it. I also mentioned a bank, which has it for sure.
For sure, this feature is not a Revolut-exclusive. Plata from Mexico should also have this and much more, from what I have read.
If American/European banks don't have such a simple feature, this speaks volumes about them.
Your comment has a vibe of "a bank that doesn't have a local office has no decent service". To each their own, I guess.
>I also mentioned a bank
if you're not in the US. revolut in the US is a fintech group with a bunch of bank partners.
I mean, you can gift things when you purchase them, not sure why that can't be a way. But I still agree it's silly to have the customers find work arounds.
I think this is the biggest reason why these category of discussion happens in the first place, there is a gap between what technology is good for, whats its ideal for and then the products motivation to push it on to the user assuming it would give a good name to the company.
Passkeys are one of the few protocols that supports against phishing (Accidentally giving away your credential to some rough site) so it has its benefits and more so for enterprise users.
It becomes challenging and is ill suited when its pushed to general public. A middle ground could have been to give it as an option to user instead of forcing it on the user. For some reason its not cool enough.
From a company's perspective
IMO it’s well-suited to the general public!
What is the average person’s threat model? Re-using passwords.
What is their most common annoyance? They forget their passwords.
Built-in password managers are great for this. But they’re not universal (e.g. I believe using Apple Passwords on Mac doesn’t carry over to Android.)
Passkeys are amazing. They’re basically magic to the average person. No typing passwords; no remembering; simply vibing, securely.
I don’t think people are regularly logging in to a huge number of accounts on other devices. Maybe they are! I doubt it.
> What is the average person’s threat model? Re-using passwords.
Wrong.
As article points out, it's not having access to their account.
Followed by not being able to easily delegate access to their account to a trusted third party (like a spouse, a friend).
Password reuse addresses the first problem, however imperfectly. Ability to share password over any channel, including analog, addresses the second.
Passkeys defeat both.
Account recovery works the same with passkeys as with passwords. You click “I forgot/lost my passkey” and get a link sent you via email that lets you create a new one.
Passkeys can also be shared with other people like spouses or friends, just like passwords.
> Passkeys can also be shared with other people like spouses or friends, just like passwords.
How? They're literally designed to not be, because they're trying to prevent phishing, and you cannot in general case distinguish phishing from legitimate delegation of authority.
> Account recovery works the same with passkeys as with passwords … get a link sent you via email
Making the email account, an often attacked resource that is always online, a single point of failure. I don't mind relatively unimportant accounts being that weak, for instance where the only reason to have an account at all is to separate your preferences from someone else's, and you don't actually care about security, but for accounts where there is significant PII or payment details or other sensitive information it is a terrible idea.
A second problem with this is that for many their email account is the same as their account where their passkeys are backed up. What if you have lost your passkey due to Google locking you out for no readily apparent reason and you don't have the online influence needed to get them to take you seriously (instead being trapped in the support bot loop)?
I still run my own mail server, and if I didn't my important mail accounts wouldn't be with someone like Google (I do have a gmail address, but that account is only really used for testing other accounts when needed), so that isn't a problem for me, but most people can't be bothered with that faf¹ so usually end up with one of the big providers.
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[1] It isn't actually that much faf², until those occasions when it is³, but more faf than most people care for, especially those that don't enjoy tinkering with technical matters.
[2] Just quietly ticking over as long as I remember to regularly verify it is patched up-to-date, and keep an eye out for zero-day issues concerning the parts involved
[3] When there is a deliverability problem, where I host it has problems so I need to make sure the backup is synced and then switch over to it, when there is a relevant zero-day and I have to rush a patch in (or take other remedial action until a fix is available) then investigate to make sure I wasn't quietly affected, etc.
> Account recovery works the same with ...
Huh, that is a really funny way to spell "the primary login method used by every not-tech-savvy person I have ever met before".
This would explain why so many places have been starting to force me to log in with an email instead of a password.
Oh right, I started to notice it too - couple non-tech people around me seem to treat "password reset" as default login flow, and definitely don't complain as much about auth flows as the rest.
I guess that's one effective way to cope with security industry bullshit.
>You click “I forgot/lost my passkey” and get a link sent you via email that lets you create a new one
I don't trust my email provider.
Woah. Why not get a better email provider?
And now you have to log into your email with a Passkey that probably you lost at the same time you lost your Passkey to the original site (e.g. lost or stolen device).
If you are not using Passkeys for your email (and the site supports that type of account recovery), then you still have only the security of passwords, just with additional steps.
Well, it puts people in a bind. The current status quo of TOTP 2FA with recovery codes is bad, but it's probably the best we have - because applying passkeys to your primary e-mail is beyond stupid at this point, it's putting your digital life in mortal peril.
I guess it really depends on how one choses to define general public, probably an assumption has been made that everyone has their own personal device.
> Built-in password managers are great for this. But they’re not universal (e.g. I believe using Apple Passwords on Mac doesn’t carry over to Android.
1.Only security keys (single device credentials) are what you can use across the device not the regular platform based one
2.Browser based password managers do provide you with that interoperability across the platforms and in fact the password manager as an supported passkey authenticator allows you do the same
> Passkeys are amazing. They’re basically magic to the average person.
Passkeys are crap. They are just random password prompts to give a false sense of security.
> My irritation is that I know what it is, and I've said no thanks many times, but I'm still asked regularly by the likes of Amazon
The people responsible show a distinct lack of understanding when it comes to consent.
Silicon Valley has no concept of consent and boundaries. If computing was a night club, "Silicon Valley" is the guy who goes up to every woman saying "Want to dance? [Yes or Maybe Later]?"
I don't think you carried on the analogy far enough.
>Want to dance? [Yes or Maybe Later]?, also drink this [Yes]"
A better analogy would be slipping something into her drink whilst handing her a 12-page stapled terms of service agreement in which she unknowingly gives full consent.
Meta: As you see the anal box as already been checked with unerasable ink.
> The biggest problem, though, is how users are pushed into it without any warning or knowledge of what they're signing up for.
Gf just logged in to hotmail without knowing her password because of a popup. I tried to explain but there was no understanding to be had.
This is how the world works. You either understand it or suffer it unknowingly.
Amazon and PayPal are horrible for this. Clicking out of the dialogs and modals to actually get logged in? (Shout out to PayPal for a dark pattern that implies "continue to login" but is actually "continue to set up PassKeys", and you actually need to "cancel" to actually login).
> by the likes of Amazon, and they usually pick a time when I'm trying to order something quick
they have an algorithm that can predict the likeliest moment you'll not see or panic-hit the "ok" button in haste
I think it is simpler than that: they ask irritatingly often, and I'm often looking quickly to see if I can get something on next-day delivery, so the two factors coincide.
"if companies are trying to nag me into something I very much doubt the main benefit is mine."
Bingo.
Amazon does benefit from increased account security; they don't have to refund non-fraudulent orders after all. For most people, a passkey is genuinely more secure.
What about availability? The article is precisely about that.