I'm glad that DuckDB has a foundation in place and hope it is resilient enough to push the DB forward when the time comes.
Out of all the big orgs, Amazon is probably the one that has the least regard for keeping technically interesting projects alive, and the certainly will bulldoze it for some dumb reason when the next re-org comes.
I think 'least regard' belongs to Oracle. For some reason I thought DuckDB was one of Gabe's ideas over at DuckDuckGo :-).
That said, the acquisition by Amazon is interesting in that it seems to overlap with their existing DB offerings? Which makes me wonder what exactly it is that they are getting out of this.
It would have been a perfect story/stack if they'd have rather joined duckduckgo ;)
Potential competitor removed from play
Duckdb is already an aws offering
they did fairly well with Java
I could definitely imagine Java in better hands.
I can't think of many other languages/frameworks where one of the worst places to install it is from the primary sponsor/maintainer.
Java could be in better hands. Maybe will be, one day, when Oracle finally ends up fighting the organisational fire that has started in their debt pile.
That's odd; I've only heard good things about the Java team at Oracle. Is there a public article or insider knowledge that differs?
I mean this more generally, beyond that team. Oracle have used their ownership of Java as a thumping great cudgel before, and my own feeling is that the Google lawsuit basically ended Java’s appeal as a language on which others would risk any kind of innovation. A more nuanced approach might have preserved its relevance.
A few years ago, I was itching to either brush up on Java (which I hadn't used since around v1.8) or learn a new one. (eg Golang, Rust, etc) In light of Oracle owning Java, I suspected it would face a long, slow decline and would eventually fade into Perl-like obscurity and decided to spend my time elsewhere. Also, I didn't want their nagging runtime updater on my system anymore.
Haven't regretted that decision at all and it seems to be playing out about how I expected. (Except LLMs make rewrites into other languages more tractable so the slow decline of Java may accelerate)
I thought MySQL wasn't led badly? Compared to its forks
Surely they are better than Google in this regard.
AFAIK Google is much better at not tearing well-working teams apart in reorgs, and letting people go they have acquihired a few quarters earlier.
Of the few examples I have I my head, I'd even say that the fate of a product that has been acquired by Google is probably even better than those of Google's internally developed products. e.g. Waze is still alive and kicking 13 years after acquisition under its own brand and hasn't been completely swallowed by Google Maps. The Nest brand also stuck around for quite some time.
Google is better but it's an incredibly low bar.
Amazon will drive these people to quit within a couple years over filling out MBRs and threats about how the MBR isn't good enough (MBR = monthly business report, pure bullshit theatre that drives the whole company mad 2/4 weeks every month).
Google would drive them to quit over a longer timeframe, with no threats or harrassment, just because every time they try to ship something cool, someone else has a reason not to do it and that kills you eventually.
They should be fine as long as they remember to use the new cover sheets. I'm sure they got a copy of the memo.
Ooo yeah. Mmk that’d be great.
Don't worry, I'll send them another copy just in case.
> Google would drive them to quit over a longer timeframe, with no threats or harrassment, just because every time they try to ship something cool, someone else has a reason not to do it and that kills you eventually.
Yeah, I've never personally worked at any of those places, but collaborated on a few open source projects with Googlers and Xooglers and the slow grinding wheels of their "processes" that wear people down over time were very apparent. Nevertheless, it has been a breeding ground for many interesting technologies, even if it often suffocates them over the long term.
> Amazon will drive these people to quit within a couple years over filling out MBRs and threats about how the MBR isn't good enough (MBR = monthly business report, pure bullshit theatre that drives the whole company mad 2/4 weeks every month).
Wouldn't be possible nowadays to LLM your way out of this?
Really no idea, just asking.
I'm actually curious too, haven't been there in a while. It's possible that the MBR pyramid has become LLM assisted on all sides but the cultural themes are surely all still there.
Honestly, the whole thing felt LLM to start with, tons of people lacking context and throwing words and summaries around.
LLM to write it, then all the managers just use LLM to summarise it :)
The next logical step to ensure MBR quality would be to introduce MBR reviews before filing, also done by LLMs of course.
Already there. LLMs evaluate the entries, rewrite them, score and provide guidance as to what additional questions should be answered. Of course my manager was unhappy with this months entries and requested we add additional criteria/formats. When I suggested we simply update the AI to include his guidance going forward, it was clear that no, he expected this to be a pain point going forward that he can use to critique his reports for not following the cryptic guidelines he shared once buried in a slack message.
Why don't they hire MBR specialists and embed them? Leave the development groups alone.
They do, they’re TPMs and PMs. If you’re a development team at Amazon stressing over MBRs, you’ve failed to give those people the tools to pull important metrics themselves.
> (MBR = monthly business report, pure bullshit theatre that drives the whole company mad 2/4 weeks every month)
Couldn't have said it any better myself having worked at AWS for close to 8y. I was there during their peak growth years and remember very well how some of these processes that were once not as maddening, devolved.
To be fair, I suspect most of the core team is effectively rich after an acqu-hire.
If I had 5 million I’m going to retire and never code for money again.
I do want to make small video games though, make some music. Pay for a friend’s kids college.
I wouldn’t waste a single extra hour making more money. Usually the golden handcuffs fall off after a year or two. That’s why Heroku went to crap, all the core people left.
Google Maps is also an acquisition from more than 2 decades ago, by the way.
Youtube is another famous example.
Google has such a much better reputation when it comes to contributing to and understanding open source. It’s unfair to Google to put Amazon above them.
Heck AWS is the sole reason all these projects needed to go through these license changes to prevent AWS from completely destroying their business models.
Google had a better reputation. But these days I’m really not convinced they’re significantly better than Amazon.
Weirdly I’d put Microsoft above modern-Google, and that’s still a low bar.
What business model do MIT licensed projects even have? If you want to offer support contracts and actually make people use them, don't use MIT. You can't have you cake (accepting public contributions and free labor) and eat it (sole profiteering) too.
> If you want to offer support contracts and actually make people use them, don't use MIT. You can't have you cake (accepting public contributions and free labor) and eat it (sole profiteering) too.
I can't speak to how successful it is, but Daniel/Curl have been running with this model[0][1] for years. Probably not too different from 'drh and SQLite[2][3].
[0] https://curl.se/support.html
[1] https://rock-solid.curl.dev/
[2] https://sqlite.org/support.html
[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49272832
RMS addressed the business model from the very beginning: it's services and consulting. He practiced what he preached.
You might think that's got a very low ceiling. But, even though it's a bad example in many ways, OpenAI showed that the ceiling is very high. And if you're morally flexible even higher.
RMS promotes GPL, not MIT licensed software.
When a bigger entity (e.g. AWS) decides to undercut the original creator/vendor (e.g. redis,elastic search), MIT code des not help.
RMS would probably agree with you and think that I'm apostate. But there's an open source license for the full spectrum of software authors' preferences. Depending on the circumstances some could turn out to be a poor choice.
I know some lawyers who specialize in these choices. Everyone thinks their choice doesn't smell, but there are the resources to make informed choices.
Actually dual license, those that want industry friendly license can get as much as they are willing to give upstream.
With MIT there isn't much to goan with business comptiable licensing.
There the question turns to "you may sue me, if it breaks" as reasoning. In reality sueing will rarely work, but having a business contract satisfies the company's board and insurance about using the software over an "AS IS"-license alone.
It helps just fine. The original software is still there, available for anyone to use for free. AWS et al can't take that away from us, no matter what they choose to do with their fork.
When they say "doesn't help", they're talking about the developers of the original software you want to use for free getting to eat food and have a roof over their head.
It has an extremely low ceiling. You literally cannot make consumer-targeted software if you want to survive while writing open-source code. Services and consulting is strictly B2B, and services and consulting for open-source software is capable of supporting a population of like 1% of existing software developers. Advocating for this dogmatic ideal that would cull the field by 99% is ridiculous.
I don't know how you came to OpenAI as an example given that they famously succeeded while going closed-source with the release of ChatGPT.
Red Hat grew on GPL licensed projects to become a $34 billion business. Canonical does the same except it’s Ubuntu not RHEL and charges more than Red Hat.
You really underestimate the value of support contracts.
GPL is not MIT. If your software is GPL, you can sell it relicensed as MIT for income.
Doesn’t matter. When companies pay for support contracts they don’t care whether the code is GPL or MIT. They care about the support they get.
You can only do this if you own the copyright for all contributions.
I'm not seeing how MIT licensing has anything to do with your ability to use support contacts as a business model. Yeah, nothing constrains the potential customer to purchase support, but that's just as true of GPL licensed software. I can download GPL software and never pay a dime for a support contract, just like MIT software.
..a strategy valid in the good ol' days when a complete rewrite of the currently non-licenseable non-protectable underlying desings and ideas would not cost you 200$ on tokens to reimplement in a different or even in the same language.. maybe SW patents will be a thing soon .. and inadvertently become another nail in the coffin of FOSS and SW development in general, who knows
One of the things that has hampered the adoption of Dart/Flutter has been the fear Google would abandon it. I always presumed them to be in the lead regarding this kind of shittiness, but this is based on gut feel rather than analysis.
I feel like google do the most innovative projects of all the big companies.
Golang is alive and kicking still :shrug:
Not to mention Angular
golang is great?
> Out of all the big orgs, Amazon is probably the one that has the least regard for keeping technically interesting projects alive
I'm curious what you mean by this. I would have said the exact opposite - AWS tends to keep projects around for a very long time. They haven't acquired very many open-source projects, but the few that they have are all still running as far as I know.
Fig, was one of them but was only partially opens source IIRC. CLI autocomplete and script team sync. Turned into/integrated into Amazon Q, which turned into Kiro CLI, which AFAIK doesn't share any functionality with the original product nowadays.
Yup, they are very serious about DynamoDB and it is a very good product. Wish they released more information about it, though.
Man I admire AWS marketing team for convincing people DynamoDB is a very good product.
100 items max per Transaction BatchGet 100 items, 16 MB max low write limits on same key Item size 400 KB max etc.
DynamoDB has basically two legitimate use-cases that I'm familiar with:
1. You're selling a system to a customer to use within their own AWS account, that you will have no access to, and it needs a transactional datastore (not just an object bucket) of some kind. The fact that it costs nothing by default (particularly valuable when the customer is trying to deploy a proof-of-concept), scales more-or-less perfectly without anybody touching it, requires zero day-to-day maintenance by you or the customer, and all it will ever ask is that you throw money at it, is very, very much a feature. One example I'm familiar with in the wild is Teleport: https://goteleport.com/docs/reference/deployment/backends/#d...
2. You have a huge OLTP workload that fits Dynamo's KV patterns (e.g. Amazon.com shopping carts, which is what it was originally built for). You don't care how much DynamoDB costs (in either dollars or engineering limitations) because any alternative would melt your face off if you even tried.
Most of the pain that comes from Dynamo is people who try to use it as a primary datastore in place of a relational database just to get the serverless pricing model. It's not worth giving up the flexibility on greenfield systems. It does become worth it to give up the flexibility when your system is mature and you don't have genuine flexibility anymore anyway.
Anyone trying to use a kv store for relational workloads is The same kind of person who uses a kv cache with durability features instead of a kv store. You can’t blame the tech for their mistakes.
Some of the largest, highest TPS, highest throughput systems in the world use DDB.
The constraints are what let this happen. Unconstraining it might make a better generalist product but part of what you're opting into with DDB is the dumb "put an item in get an item out semantics" and the other side is knowing that it will still work if that volume increases dramatically.
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The reason it's good is because, although it is bad, you never have to worry about it in terms of maintenance, admin or scale. It's like lambda for databases.
For the same price, you can run a much more capable PSQL instance with way better features, but now you're on the hook for it being up 24/7.
They should really call it "data-structures as a service" rather than a database, really. Programming against it always reminds me of Leetcode problems, having to define your columns in a way to suit the very specific lookup patterns that they allow for.
I mean this reminds me of Firebase v1 and FoundationDB I think both of which have a favorable reputation for quality in both design and implementation. I do think there's something to be said for being forced to code against what operations are actually fast in your DB. Once it works you can be reasonably confident it will also be fast rather than the typical RDBMS experience of getting an abundance of rope with which to hang yourself with. You often won't find out until it's already load bearing that your query doesn't scale.
You do have to worry about scale with lambda though. It’s not super hard to hit a rate limit where warm up times start being a real problem.
Thanks, I don't really get any chance to seriously use or manage OLTP databases (mostly working with OLAP ones myself) so it is good to know about this. The 400KB limit is indeed very limiting -- I had to truncate some data because of that.
I wish I could get a role to work on OLTP databases. PostgreSQL seems to be a fascinating topic so that's on my plate.
They have published 2 academic papers about it. What more do you want, operational details?
For example, I would like to know how to calculate the charge of incremental export before I run one.
One blog says it is charged by the amount of change logs (but the official doc doesn't say so), which makes sense. But how do I estimate the amount? My hunch is: Put + Write + (1~100) * TransitWrite + Update + Delete + (1~25) * BatchWrite.
https://www.amazon.science/publications/dynamo-amazons-highl...
For anyone interested in the differences between dynamo (the early internal-only KV store described in this paper) and DynamoDB (The AWS service), Marc Brooker has an excellent writeup https://brooker.co.za/blog/2025/08/15/dynamo-dynamodb-dsql.h...
It is their previous one. I did read another paper about DynamoDB, but still there is not much details.
For example, I want to know how to calculate the charge of incremental export. One blog says it is charged by the amount of change logs (but the official doc doesn't say so), which makes sense. But how do I estimate the amount? My hunch is: Put + Write + (1~100) * TransitWrite + Update + Delete + (1~25) * BatchWrite.
Nothing to do with DynamoDB except the name.
This is massively different from DynamoDB.
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I'm still salty about them demolishing Cloud9
What good is a foundation when it's core member is owned by a public corporation? Like we know what happens, the pattern isn't unique or rare. Corporate interests will always take priority over community interests, corporations care about profit not community. If Amazon cares about the community as they care about their own workforce, that does not bode well.
who currently has the most regard for keeping technically interesting projects alive?
<crickets>
> Amazon is probably the one that has the least regard for keeping technically interesting projects alive
Well ...
https://killedbygoogle.com/
Either way that news is awful. Europeans selling out to US corporations and then wondering why Europe is not competitive in software engineering anymore. Funniest thing is Draghi keeps on saying that; well, recently we also heard that the USA has full access to all national police databases in the EU now. It seems as if Washington remote-proxy-controls the EU. Quite amazing to see, too. The amount of bribe money flowing must be legendary.