This opens up an interesting synergy: district heating. 45C is low but not unworkable for a district heating loop, and a data center might be able to make a nice pitch to a community if the data center offers to provide heat to a district heating system for free. This brings the value to the local community of a nearby datacenter up from near zero to potentially a few million dollars per year.
Summer is still an issue, but fun solutions are possible. With the right geology, I think it’s possible to heat an underground volume in the summer and recapture (some of) that heat in the winter. In many, many climates, annual heating costs are far higher than cooling costs, at least if people aren’t stupid with skylights. [0]
[0] As a back-of-the-envelope heuristic, heating or cooling load due to conduction and air exchange is proportional to the difference between indoor and outdoor temperature. Outdoor temperatures of -10F to 30F are not unusual in the winter and are 40-80F away from an indoor temp of 70F. But outdoor temperatures in these climates rarely exceed 95F and are mostly lower in the summer, so that’s 15-25F of cooling. And heat pumps are more efficient at smaller temperature differences.
Radiative heating is an entirely different story.
Microsoft's already building data centers hooked up to district heating (Espoo and Kirkkonummi, Finland). Heatpumps are amazing.
(Seasonal heat storage is also a thing, Espoo's neighbours have tens of GWh of storage, with a new 90 GWh cavern in the works. Not sure if the systems are interlinked.)
Don't forget XTX Markets in Kajaani! At least last I heard. Free heating for an entire city in exchange for being allowed to build out a data center is a pretty good deal.
Nice!
Apparently the local supercomputer cluster in Kajaani has also been hooked up in 2021 and is responsible for a fifth of heating.
In the Netherlands we are already transporting “waste energy” in the form of heat to greenhouses to warm them in winter.
Also interesting that the article states that this engineering problem hadn’t been solved before. Google pioneered running chips hotter than before. Moreover, we have had water cooling in consumer setups for ages. (At least 30 years.) So what is new is that all chips have been attached to the loop. I couldn’t find what they did with PSU though.
High end server PSUs also have liquid cooling now. I'm not quite sure of what temp ranges they run in though.
Apparently SuperMicro also has an existing solution. They are stating very similar numbers: https://www.supermicro.com/en/solutions/liquid-cooling
I think Nvidia are being a little disingenuous here. If I understand correctly, Bull/Eviden has already solved this problem and is in production in JUPITER.
If I am not mistaken, Bull's warm water cooling requires water at ~30°C, so 45°C is still an improvement.
In Finland the datacentre heat is boosted to 60–90°C for district heating (new builds tend to use heat pumps) [1]
A 75-MW data center in Mäntsälä has provided 2/3 of the heat for the town (2,500 homes) for a decade [2]
1. https://www.creatingsustainablecities.org.uk/post/case-study...
2. https://www.sustainabilitymenews.com/waste-management/how-fi...
45 is the cool temp so they could send the community a higher temp water to their heat exchanger?
Then 45 or below is sent back on the return.
Yes, but the heat will still likely need boosting by about a further 10 degrees either at the source or end user.
DC inlet is 45°C, outlet is 55°C assuming a 10°C ΔT. By the time that's travelled 500m–1km through pipework you've lost a few degrees, so you're arriving at the HIU at maybe 50–52°C. The home radiator circuit then takes that down by around say 12°C, returning ~38°C. Factor in pipe losses on the return leg and you're back at the data centre with maybe 35°C inlet rather than 45°C — meaning the DC output is now only 45°C rather than 55°C, and the whole system gradually degrades each cycle. You could address this by mixing some hot output back into the return to keep the DC inlet stable at 45°C, but eh.
> By the time that's travelled 500m–1km through pipework you've lost a few degrees
you'd be surprised. If you have high flow, and the pipes are insulated and underground, then after about a week the temperature drop isn't that much. You do have heat losses, but if you have a high enough continuos flow and a big enough pipe, then it'll be low enough to not worry about, especially if the aim is heat shedding rather than efficiency.
My old flat was powered by both the 1970s boilers across the way, and more recently the massive south london incinerator. The pipe cross section was I think 40cm and at peak carried ~3-5 Megawatts of heat. I think it operated at 150c, but that could be me misremembering (this is the later version of the network: https://www.burohappold.com/projects/veolia-southwark-2-0-he... for the councils is they get a maintained heater network, which is much cheaper than doing it themselves (even more now with gas being so expensive) the power station gets to charge for a waste product and it doubles their on paper efficiency, its a win win.)
Yeah, I mean it does depend on the pipework and season/geography for sure. I was simplifying a bit in that a part of the 'distribution' losses are in the plate heat exchanger as you convert from the "IT" loop to the "district heating" loop. The numbers are roughly right, potentially slightly worse in deep winter when it matters the most.
>Factor in pipe losses on the return leg and you're back at the data centre with maybe 35°C inlet rather than 45°C
Surely having the input fluid being colder is a benefit, not a problem? Just run the fluid more slowly through the system?
In essence you can't really because slower flow rate makes the heat transfer less efficient. You'd be halfing the flow rate in that example.
But a larger delta-T makes it more efficient?
[dead]
Maybe you can use a heat exchanger, like in nuclear power plants, and separate the data center flow from the outside flow, so they can go at different speeds.
You would use a heat exchanger normally anyway. Forcing the outside (DH) to be slow would get you that, but there is cost in having low flow in that HXs are less efficient at the far end and you can transfer less heat in the same pipework (it would more than half the district heating capacity). So in practice, not really.
Already done and in use in the nordics. Most likely in most dc:s in the northern hemisphere with cold winters.
Of old... https://web.archive.org/web/20210115152829/https://www.nrel....
It's got a "heat energy to/from campus" exchange in there.
That's a link in March and the air temperature was 31°F.
https://web.archive.org/web/20210708150410/https://www.nrel.... is later with air temperature of 68°F.
The diagram you shared has an open loop chiller, are those still needed as a backup?
Possibly. I was trying to find one with capture in the summer or early fall when it was a lot warmer out.
https://web.archive.org/web/20210708150410/https://www.nrel....
The thermosyphon took it from 90.2°F to 70.8°F ... and then it went to the counterflow cooling towers which took it from 69.8°F to 64.8°F. If that thermosyphon did the majority of the work and there's not too much more in the cooling towers... and that was only rejecting 375kW of heat through evaporation.
Note one of the parameters with it in the dashboard: dry bulb temperature.
https://web.archive.org/web/20251207023030/https://docs.nrel... for more info on the thermosyphon.
I'm disappointed that the dashboard isn't available anymore. It was rather neat to look at.
Some older articles about it:
https://www.nlr.gov/news/detail/program/2023/a-decade-of-gre...
https://www.nlr.gov/computational-science/data-center-coolin... (click through these)
---https://www.nlr.gov/computational-science/reducing-water-usa...
The data centers can also be used to heat swimming pools [1].
[1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-64939558
Can we also make a jaccuzi? with bubbles? that would be funny.
Heat pumps can effectively bring that temp up higher.
The problem is really how much energy is actually available.
European cities are doing it already.
Blew my mind living in a Berlin apartment, that the heating & hot water was managed centrally for the entire block (not the apartment block, the whole city block). Too used to Anglo cities where everyone does for themselves.
There are about 17,000 heat networks in the UK: https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/business/consultancy-and-st...
Only about 2% of the total heating used though...
Blew my mind in stockholm that they have hot water at all. In my home country we just have electric heaters at the shower tap.
(seriously though, I knew they had hot water, it just never occurred to me how awesome it is to have hot water on the tap)
New York has central steam heating.
It makes a lot of sense when there is waste heat. But in places where there isn't, having per house or per apartment block heating unit is preferable because you cut on transmission losses and infrastructure cost
As I understand it, it's about economies of scale. It's cheaper to heat enough for the whole block in one big unit than it is to have a couple dozen smaller unit doing their own heating. I haven't really studied it. I'm sure the Germans have, efficiency is a whole cultural value with them ;)
It still makes sense. If heat is produced by a burning something, it is is more efficient to do that in one dedicated place. It makes it easier to pipe exhaust away from apartments and efficiency can be higher.
Also gas pipes to every home isn't a thing in many countries.
If you burn waste, you have waste heat.
My parents city in eastern Europe just recently switched from burning russian oil to biomass. Even then prices are constantly increasing while converting entire building to heat pump would drop prices by half. However it’s near impossible due to bureaucracy.
Yep, my European apartment has been heated with waste heat from a nearby data centre since 2013: https://eicher-pauli.ch/referenzen/ewz-waermeverbund-binz-zu...
What's the problem with skylights?
Windows are harder to insulate than walls anyway, but the most important insulation is in the roof because heat rises, so skylights would leak even more heat than normal windows already do.
Your logic is solid, but their usage kinda implies the opposite (that skylights would make summers worse, not winters). That seems possible given the obvious dynamics of increasing the amount of direct sunlight, but based on a quick Kagi the overall effect is actually good for both summer and winter if used instead of windows rather than in addition to windows:
https://www.energystar.gov/sites/default/files/asset/documen...Probably less good if you want to enjoy the view horizontally.
Cameras and screens. /s mostly
"fenestration" - I love that word!
Even better is “defenestration,” a fancy term for throwing someone out of a window.
A home with smaller windows is harder to sell so almost nobody builds homes with smaller windows just because they put in a skylight. Small windows make rooms feel smaller and claustrophobic. A skylight gives light but not a view, and large windows give houses a modern look, efficiency be damned. If you search for "modern house" all you see is walls of glass.
at low low cost of feeling like in cage.
Like, it's good idea for a warehouse, limited for housing, people want windows
> 45C is low but not unworkable for a district heating loop,
*55C is on the output, read article first pls
Main problem is that it wouldn't work with buildings designed for higher heating temperature so it is limited to new builds. And it is not limited just to replacing heaters, hot water system is also designed to work with higher temperatures so heat exchanger used would have to be significantly larger
Another one is that load is not constant on both sides and not exactly something that can be increased on demand (unless you're fine with burning cycles just to electrically heat, but that's massively inefficient)
> Main problem is that it wouldn't work with buildings designed for higher heating temperature so it is limited to new builds.
That's no longer the case with modern, multi-stage high temperature heat pumps [1]. These consume more electricity, yes, but still achieve far better efficiency than straight burning fuel or resistive heaters.
[1] https://www.buderus.de/de/waermepumpe/hochtemperatur
I guess technically you could put heat pump at destination but that significantly eats into "free heat" part
And that is why existing installations put the heat pump to production side and then just pipe the high temperature water to district heating network.
Do you live near a datacenter? Property value goes down, constant humming.. the way we heat up the earth right now, i don't think you have to worry about heating
I grew up in Northern Virginia, (of AWS US-East-1, MAE-East, and Equinix fame), where there are more data centers than anywhere else in the world, and I never heard organized opposition to them until the last couple of years. They were mainly viewed as a way for Loudoun County to build their industrial tax base without the downsides of having industrial workers, and allowed them to consistently lower property taxes while having excellent schools. Data centers are unsightly and use electricity and water, but so does literally any kind of industrial facility. They are also pretty quiet, if you exclude the ones using on site gas turbines for electricity.
Property values have consistently gone up in that region for decades, and are up to $6 million an acre if there's enough contiguous land to put another data center on.
Many of the people complaining about datacenters would also complain about literally any kind of development.
You got good data centres, and their construction and operation were likely regulated.
The problem is that apparently you can just ignore that by building in poor places that won't hold you accountable and perhaps don't even have the regulations. If they do, just don't comply with them. Then your gas turbines can be as loud as you like, nobody will stop you. There's this one weird trick where you can pretend your generators aren't turned on, but they are, and they pollute badly. Nobody will call you out on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VJT2JeDCyw
Also you can take people's drinking water to cool your data centre, and promise a water recycling plant, and then just not build it.
https://www.politico.com/news/2026/05/05/xai-water-reuse-pro...
What I forgot to mention is this one weird trick only works if you're a turbo-bastard with an enormous bank account, and the government of the poor place thinks it's in line for a payday.
Well yeah, if you vote to have fucktards run your state or county, you’re going to live under fucktard conditions.
The US is very different from Europe. You have enormous amounts of space so even a Data Center that is "close by" is probably still a mile or more. In smaller places like European countries, the data centre wall might only be 100 yards or less from the back of your house so the proximity blocks light and makes you feel encroached on, even if no-one is peeping. In lots of cases, the center might have been built on open land so it is not surprising people don't appreciate their view changing from open land to "very large and tall building"
No? I live very close to Loudoun county, there's DCs across the road from homes.
The new gen of AI-boom-construction datacenters seem to be substantially different than the ones I used to go when working at companies whose software ran inside them. Those were running air-cooled rack servers, which is a whole different world from these things. The couple of the new gen I've seen have been much larger and much more turbine-happy.
i'm confused on the humming part, i've driven by them many times and they're just...large, sorta ugly, buildings. but that's really it. i wonder if i walked up to a building i'd hear the humming. quite surprised to learn that they emit a humming that bothers nearby folks
I haven’t been in an AI data center, but have been in several others, and worked in a smaller one. I never really hear anything until I open the door to a computer room… and I’m one of those people who is bothered by the electrical noise in my walls.
Maybe those complaints are for datacenters using gas turbines for power. I think some of the recent ones (xAIs?) was built without sufficient power from the grid.
xAI colossus was built without sufficient grid power, so uses "mobile" gas turbines to generate power.
It's absurd, and serves as evidence that we need a confiscatory wealth tax, if we want to maintain a society.
For me, it is evidence that our ability to build new power stations has seriously eroded, mostly due to bureaucracy, and that we need to fix this if we want to maintain competitiveness.
Consider the following graph which shows the power generation capabilities of China vs. the US during the last 40 years.
https://www.notboring.co/p/the-electric-slide?utm_source=sub...
The fact that data centers need to resort to gas turbines is downstream from this bureaucratic, NIMBY-driven impotency.
There is power available in the country. It is not available in arbitrary quantity, to arbitrarily selected buildings, on arbitrarily short timelines.
That said, I agree we need more power generation in this country. Massive rollouts (like in China) would bolster industry while being beneficial to nearly every citizen except those dependent on legacy energy technologies.
Sadly, the party in power opposes the most scalable approaches to this because greatly expanded power generation would hurt margins for a few special interests.
I’ve been to datacenters, but not the huuuge ones people seem to talk about in the context of AI. They are noisy inside (due to air cooling, which is largely avoided by the tech in the OP), but they’re entirely unremarkable outside compared to any other commercial or industrial building. Computers are not inherently loud, nor is power conversion.
Power plants are all over, even in populated areas. They’re not so bad either (except perhaps coal).
There is no fundamental reason that datacenters need to be especially unpleasant to their neighbors.
On-site natural gas turbines at a handful of DCs are genuinely loud. In general I agree that DCs are mostly fine neighbors, but maybe louder power plants aren't.
Yeah this is it. You can make really nice datacenters that are basically quiet and environmentally perfect. This was never in dispute.
But that is not how corporations roll. They want the cheapest shit that they can get away with. No regulations only corruption. Which is middle of nowhere America.
they just want data centers now. most companies would rather use solar, but they can't on short timelines due to land use regulations (and import tariffs)
And if they put them in the middle of nowhere, I don't see why there's a problem.
What I don't understand is putting these things in populated areas.
Would you like to work in the middle of nowhere?
After construction, not all that many people work at a data center. Some ops staff, maybe a small security team.
So let's spit on those 'not so many people' from our ivory tower?
Besides, it's not about people, it's about power. Pulling a few MW into middle of nowhere is prohibitively expensive.
30 minutes outside of the suburbs doesn't sound like an awful commute.
If they can be deployed in low-earth orbit with nobody working on them, they can be deployed 20 miles east of Bumfuck, Nebraska with nobody working on them.
The physical threat model of the Nebraska option does not rely on the tyranny of the rocket to keep intruders away.
It's like anything else in this world. Corner cutting and being shitty leads to shitty outcomes
When I was building data enters in populated areas there were regulations for noise, visual signature, power usage, and etc. It looks like a lot of these newer sites are in low regulation areas. Which is great for profit margin, and not so great for neighbors.
Sounds like the “don’t tread on me” crowd is about to find out the value of regulation.
>There is no fundamental reason that datacenters need to be especially unpleasant to their neighbors.
Sure there is, being a good neighbor costs more than being a bad neighbor
It depends a lot on things like geology and some people are a lot more sensitive. It is really an issue.
I don't have any datacenters near me but I can hear some heavy hums from the washing machine 3 floors up when it put my head on my pillow, for some reason it just propagates through the building physically. When I walk around I don't hear it. Datacenter noise can be the same.
IMO they should be put away from habitation, there's no reason for them to be near there anyway
> I don't have any datacenters near me but I can hear some heavy hums from the washing machine 3 floors up when it put my head on my pillow, for some reason it just propagates through the building physically. When I walk around I don't hear it. Datacenter noise can be the same.
Right. Vibration propagates through solid (and liquid) materials.
But this can all be measured and controlled, and there's nothing special about datacenters. A building that is hundreds of feet away will couple to your pillow much less strongly than a washing machine in your building. And the washing machine often has a wildly unbalanced load and minimal decoupling between itself and the floor, whereas a big fan in a datacenter or other industrial building ought to be balanced and also ought to be installed on decoupling mounts.
If datacenter operators (cough xAI) are being lazy about properly selecting, installing and maintaining equipment, then you can have a problem. Otherwise you have a much smaller problem.
> IMO they should be put away from habitation, there's no reason for them to be near there anyway
I agree, but that's a hard problem (in the US anyway). Unless you're plopping data centers in the middle of national parks, or in the middle of the desert where water is going to be a problem, you are nearly always going to be within some small mile radius of civilization. Plus the cost of trenching new fiber out in the middle of nowhere.
The same reasons humans want to concentrate in a particular area (access to jobs, infrastructure) are the same things that data centers need.
Once water-less cooling tech like this improves then yeah, just plopping them in the middle of the unpopulated desert becomes viable (assuming you can get the fiber out there and latency is tolerable), so long as they generate their own power.
The climate requirements to run at this hotter temperature still probably means it'll require more active cooling in the desert during daytime /summers. Assuming we're talking about hotter desert environments like US southwest. That might make your proposal not as economical.
Imo we should just solve the problems with data centers being near cities. Manage/regulate the noise and any waste (heat included, it shouldn't drastically impact the neighbors) and make them pay for any utility capacity/reliability upgrades needed. If this article is right and water usage can be nearly eliminated then it seems like the rest should be solvable? Especially if we can take the extra heat and use it for local power or heating needs.
You might (but probably not) be able to do district heating with this, but electricity generation is not going to be efficient. Heat is a very low grade form of energy, and you need a large differential to drive a turbine efficiently.
If you cycle between 45 C and 55 C water temperature (as mentioned by the press release), you are only getting a 10 C delta. That isn't even enough for district heating, probably not even with heat pumps.
Now if you have something like a steel foundry, that have much hotter cooling water, you can absolutely use the heat for district heating, but even then it usually isn't enough for cost effective electricity generation. Even when it is waste heat, as the equipment to handle it still costs money and requires maintenance.
> If you cycle between 45 C and 55 C water temperature (as mentioned by the press release), you are only getting a 10 C delta.
You are calculating the wrong delta T. To heat a space, you need your working fluid to be warmer that the space you’re heating by an appropriate amount.
55°C is certainly on the cool side to heat a building, but it’s entirely workable with a high-area, highish-thermal-conductivity system. Here’s an actual chart:
https://www.warmboard.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/WaterTe...
You don’t actually want an absurdly warm floor.
Even for buildings that need warmer fluid, water at 45-55°C is a fantastic source for a heat pump.
55 C might be enough to heat buildings but it's right on the edge where domestic hot water needs to be to kill Legionella. So traditional DH systems need to run hotter.
There low-temp/cold DH systems out there that rely on heatpumps in the buildings to extract the heat. Less losses in the network and you can even use them for cooling, but needs heat pumps everywhere.
In comparison, a traditional heat exhanger is pretty simple technology; just a hunk of metal with a valve.
> It depends a lot on things like geology and some people are a lot more sensitive.
People said this about high voltage electric lines and wind turbines. Blind tests proved they were imagining things.
Look up Benn Jordan's video on datacenter infrasound. Just because you can't perceive the noise doesn't mean it's not there and it doesn't have an effect on the human body, especially over very long periods of time.
That infrasound video is nonsense:
https://blog.andymasley.com/p/contra-benn-jordan-data-center...
I was a regular viewer of Benn Jordan until seeing one of his videos about how Apple sucked because the iPad was incompatible with so many MIDI and DAW controllers. He went through his devices one by one, plugging them into the iPad and then showing that the iPad didn't recognize the device.
I thought it was a joke of some kind and eventually he would give the "reveal" but no, he finished the video without ever considered that USB is a host/device connection - and although USB-C confusingly introduced a symmetric cable, you cannot connect two devices back-to-back (one end has to be a host) and expect anything useful to happen. And that's why Apple sells a "camera" kit to allow an iPad to act as the host to USB devices.
Seeing him use an oscilloscope to diagnose an Ethernet issue in an earlier video had given me the expectation that he was technically knowledgeable and interesting. So it was shocking that he could present conclusions with such a confident and knowledgeable air, having missed such a basic and fundamental fact about USB.
And there was no push back in the comments that I could see at the time - so seemingly half a million viewers would have finished the video feeling they had learnt something.
Do you? I live at 4th and Brannan and there was one just off 3rd and Brannan in San Francisco. It was shut down when hosting.com sold it off but I didn't notice it while walking by then and I don't notice it while walking by now.
My GPUs at Hurricane Electric in Fremont are also completely unnoticeable outside the building. Inside, when I'm working at the cabinets it's obviously deafening. Outside you wouldn't even know. Realistically, the predominant sounds at my home are from the traffic on the Bay Bridge so it's nice when there's congestion because it's quiet.
Honestly, I wish there were more urban datacenters. It's getting quite annoying having to make a 1 hr trek to Fremont every time I want to rack a new server.
> Honestly, I wish there were more urban datacenters.
There's a lot of them in high rise buildings... but they come with high rise rent.
Imagine if one of the amenities in a high-end residential building could be a cabinet haha! That would be amazing. Doesn't make economic sense, but I'd love it. Would love to explain that to my wife. "I know that one has the pool, but we can rack my servers in this one if we live there".
Something here about water usage, a small data center, and a swimming pool. Combining the three may either be awesome or tragic!
I like this idea. A small cage in an apartment complex would be a huge selling point.
Or even a La La Land on the corner, urban DC in the back. Winning across the board.
> water usage, a small data center, and a swimming pool
Swimming pool? The cooling can be for a hot tub!
Noise is a design choice and could likely be legislated away. Reject heat is different than heating from greenhouse gas effects that are “heating the planet”.
No one bats an eye when an air conditioner runs.
> No one bats an eye when an air conditioner runs.
I find their noise pretty obnoxious. Out of respect for my neighbours, when I get around to installing one, I'll be getting the absolute quietest model available.
> No one bats an eye when an air conditioner runs.
In the US
Now do heat pumps in the winter.
Data centres aren’t loud it’s the gas power generating stations next to them that are loud.
Couldn't imagine living with the ~55dBA noise literally all the time
It sounds like with this liquid cooling, they won’t need the fans?
They almost certainly need fans on the outside of the building to cool the 55C water back down to 45C. But correct, no fans on the servers themselves or even in the building. Except perhaps for the humans, so they can stand to work inside the building, when needed.
Some systems use liquid cooling for the GPU and CPU, but air cooling for the PSU, RAM and SSDs.
With that said, by the standards of industrial sites data centres are quiet, low traffic and smell free. An industrial area that can’t build a data centre certainly can’t build a steelworks or oil refinery or leather tannery.
If the outdoor temperature is cool enough (maybe 30C?), you just pipe the liquid outside through a large enough loop or heat exchanger to get it back down to under 45C. Even better if you can put the loop in a lake and dump the heat there (maybe not better from an ecological POV though). The pumps moving all that liquid becomes the noisiest component.
The humming are the gas turbines which also damages your health.
>the way we heat up the earth right now, i don't think you have to worry about heating
Nearly 10x more people die from the cold than from the heat.
"...9.43% of global deaths were attributable to non-optimal temperatures, with 8.52% from cold and 0.91% from heat."
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5...
This study doesn't factor in droughts, floods, crop death (and starvation), and other non-direct effects. It also doesn't consider wet-bulb events, because it's looking at average ambient temperatures.
I don't think this is climate change propaganda, but your application of this study by evoking it in a discussion about climate change feels like it.
Deaths from all natural disasters have dramatically decreased over the last century.
I won't bother sharing the source because you'll find some reason to dismiss it I'm sure.
It's interesting you claim my comment is propaganda when I cite a scientific source and yet have nothing to say about the parent comment which claims we no longer need to worry about heating due to climate change. Which of those comments seems more propagandistic?
Coldest month average temperature where I live is around -7C, with peaks of -35C. Climate change is not going to increase that average, more like decrease. Typically, of course, electricity price is the highest during that month too.
I think we are going to need heating.
>Do you live near a datacenter? Property value goes down, constant humming
I don't live next to one but I'd take constant humming over the constant stop/go traffic noise, honking, squeaky brakes, slamming doors and revving engines I now have on my western side of the apartment, thanks to the unemployment office the city opened on my street not too long ago.
So how come constant humming is somehow an illegal nuisance, but we've been expected to put up with the much more annoying urban traffic noise for decades just fine?
My parents apartment have constant humming anyway thanks to the HVAC system on the roof of the nearby supermarket and white/brown noise is far more tolerable and easy to tune out than traffic noises.
> we've been expected to put up with the much more annoying urban traffic noise for decades just fine?
For one, there tends to be little traffic at night when most people want quiet in order to sleep. Driving is also something (nearly) everyone does and benefits directly from, so negative externalities are easier to accept. It is much harder to accept a new source of noise near your home you haven't asked for and don't directly benefit from.
> Driving is also something (nearly) everyone does and benefits directly from, so negative externalities are easier to accept.
This reads a little too close to driving being an inherently good thing or some sort of objective requirement, but it's only that way in certain urban places because the built environment makes it as arduous as possible to do those things without.
Something that pisses me off about many urban places that don't even otherwise require people to drive, is that many who do use their cars the most often have their neighborhoods protected from the noise they contribute to everywhere else. This whole thing of putting apartments only where there's already the most disgusting car-infested thoroughfares; "sorry, can't have an apartment one street in off the main drag, that's only for bungalows! Don't like it? Get richer. Excuse me while I drive through your bedroom and park for free in front."
>s that many who do use their cars the most often have their neighborhoods protected from the noise they contribute to everywhere else.
This, so much this. All the noise producing infrastructure in cities is dumped in the highly dense poor areas, and the rich people living in the quiet suburbs in single family home who need to drive in front of your home, are protected by this externality.
I live nearby a road going down a coulee that dickheads love to speed down in warmer weather at night. I'd trade that for a hum any day.
More noise categories should be illegal or fined in dense areas, not less
Agree, but data centers are no inside dense areas though.
They're being built in the US next to people's houses with gas turbines
https://xcancel.com/BrianEntin/status/2067930868191035474?s=...
To me that only makes clear that gas turbines are the noise issues, no data centers. Surely there exists data centers that work off the main power grid and don't have a natural gas turbine as their own power source.
How dare those nasty, dirty, unemployed live their lives under likely desperate circumstance. They are so much worse than corrupt oligarchs pumping and dumping their way into the greed hall of fame.
> the way we heat up the earth right now, i don't think you have to worry about heating
So what, winters would be no more? Snow will disappear, no more ice-men and christmas trees, and subzero conditions in general, too?
And no more food. Or at least not enough of it to feed very many people.
You do eat, don't you?
Christmas food?
As the earth has warmed over the last century, has food production increased or decreased?
If production increased (dramatically) while temperatures increased in the past, could this trend continue?
> This brings the value to the local community of a nearby datacenter up from near zero to potentially a few million dollars per year.
You are not wrong, but the whole issue is a bit silly: there should be legal ways for data centres (and other commercial operations) to just send a few million dollars a year to whichever community they need to convince; instead of having to dress it up as free heating.
That means is called property taxes. Datacenters pay a lot of them, and in Loudon county specifically residential property taxes have fallen as a result.
You mean they have dropped rates, or you mean that residential property values have fallen, and thus they pay less property taxes?
the datacenter doesn't have a few million dollars to spare.
The heat is waste heat. If it cannot be recovered as a profitable source of energy, the datacenter won't be able to pay that few million dollars.
> the datacenter doesn't have a few million dollars to spare.
What makes you think so? Datacentres are already very expensive, and getting permissions quicker (or at all) might be worth a couple million dollars.
> The heat is waste heat. If it cannot be recovered as a profitable source of energy, [...]
Yes, they should make all deals that make sense for both parties, definitely. But it's only viable in some places some of the time.
Recovery isn't the issue, the issue is that district heating systems are pretty much a rarity across the world for a number of reasons. Recovering waste heat - no matter if from datacenters, industrial processes or eve wastewater/sewage - is trivial, but getting the heat to somewhere it still can have a productive "secondary usage" is a massive and expensive problem.
Yes. There's eg combined power plants that use waste heat from power plants to heat houses. The problem is that this tends to make the power plants less efficient at electricity generation.
So this waste heat recycling should only be done where and when it makes sense.
(But that's pretty easy: absent any legal requirements, the involved parties have all the right incentives already. It's all internalised between the parties.)
> The problem is that this tends to make the power plants less efficient at electricity generation.
Huh what? Never heard of that one before.
> absent any legal requirements, the involved parties have all the right incentives already
Well... that's the problem, they don't. Sure, datacenter operators could go and offer to install district heating, waste heat recyclers and whatnot, and it would likely be profitable. But, and here it gets annoying, it's not profitable enough.
But paying the money is less resource efficient than using the waste heat for a productive use. As a general rule we should probably insensitvise good use of resources that benefit the general population.
Using waste heat like this only makes sense in some places some of the time.
And when it does, people should obviously go for it. Work out a deal, when there's some surplus to share.
Im general. But the way AI is growing is not a general case, but exponential. It shouldn’t be slowed down by generalisations.
Surely there's something missing from your argument. It shouldn't be slowed down because it's growing exponentially?
Presumably you think that the end result of extreme and rapid ai growth is beneficial to most and that is why it shouldn't be slowed down? That arriving earlier at whatever end-point you have in mind will provide so much benefit that it's worth disregarding the pains to get there?
Or is there something else to your argument? Because if there isn't, you are staking an awful lot on your expectation coming true. Especially that going slower doesn't provide any worthwhile benefits to the outcome.
I mean it's kinda obvious you don't wanna throw baby out of bath water when technology is at its infancy.
There's nearly 0 downsides to absolute majority of people to continue building out datacenters. Yet I see this derangement syndrome with headlines like "I’d Rather Risk Cancer Than See AI Move This Fast"[0]. This is just as farcical as calling cars a national security threat in 1920s and any sufficient army should be run by cavalry.
0: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/2026/06/ai-cancer-pro...
The value of an AI data center in your area is negative, not near zero. Pollution, water use, heat, infrasound (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bP80DEAbuo) and so much more... But at least we may get some cheap heat in the future
That infrasound video is nonsense:
https://blog.andymasley.com/p/contra-benn-jordan-data-center...
Heat is not a cost -- no one is physically cooking because they live within miles of a building with computers in it.
Water usage is not a cost with this new technology -- that is what the article is about.
Infrasound is terrifically understudied and should not be discussed definitively based on the findings of a highly-biased amateur, but regardless: fan sound is not a cost with this new technology -- that is what the article is about.
Re:pollution, I suppose all buildings are kinda inherently polluting just by existing. So you've got them on that point!
Most importantly, actually: the person above clearly knows about all this, and was just discussing the benefits on their own. I love me some pedantry (really!) but this attempt seems counterproductive, sorry.
> Heat is not a cost
hmm? maybe it differs from time to time? on summer, it IS cost (nearby need to run AC)
also ecological and medical problems