A lot of people hate sexprs. Even seemingly reasonable folks.
I imagined they have met students that really struggle with the syntax, while grokking the concepts easily.
I myself have heard "the parentheses are hard to balance" and "after a while you dont even see the parentheses" enough times that I think maybe both can be correct.
> A lot of people hate sexprs
In all my time I have never come across a single Lisper, neither in person nor online, and I know far more than a few dozens, who once grokked the REPL-driven workflow and the structural editing idioms only to later, for whatever reason, suddenly start disliking or even hating s-expressions.
All that so-called "hatred" stems from unfamiliarity. People fuss about Lisps lacking static types, without a single clue about how a "true" REPL trades them off for something different. They compare it to a Python or C# REPL and think "it ain't a big deal". Well, the Lisp REPL is quite different, and yes, a major deal - every single part of the Read-Eval-Print-Loop differs. They complain about "hard to deal with parentheses" and "I can't refactor without types" while having no clue how amazingly nice structural editing is in practice, that you never even think about parens - you only see structure, order and reason.
This is survivorship bias. People who don't like s-expr aren't lispers.
I've used Lisp before. I can read s-expr code. Unfamiliarity is not the issue. I just don't like them. I don't like Haskell/ML either, and I've written large projects in both, so it's not a Lisp-specific thing.
> I just don't like them
That is what I don't get. I have used many different languages, and often is not the syntax that I don't like - I may dislike the semantics, the runtime, the tooling, but syntax, really how? It's like "I hate Greek alphabet", even though this is a weird comparison - alphabet is a flat bag of arbitrary symbols with no structural role, so disliking it sounds incoherent by construction. I just can't ever get over "s-expressions hate", in such a way like: "What are you even talking about? There's practically zero syntax in Lisp."
That's precisely the issue: there is only one syntactic form. Everything blends together and ends up looking the same. It makes my eyes hurt.
I have quite the opposite effect. I don't "hate" programming languages, but honestly, sometimes I don't understand how the fuck we (people) managed to build layers and layers of complexity (both syntactic and semantic) for things that can be concisely and simply explained as simple Lisp forms.
I get bonkers hysterical laughs sometimes, grabbing a piece of Java, Typescript or Python and asking an LLM how a similar code would look in Clojure. That doesn't universally yield "better" results; sometimes, the code may look certifiably more cryptic than the original - brute-forcing an algorithm into Lisp can look very terse, but that's up to the coder - I am capable of writing cryptic yet functioning code in any language.
Considering your experience and preferences, what do you like?
I love Lisps, ML-family languages, etc. Languages like Java or Go are just painful for me to program in, and I know I’m probably in the minority there.
But honestly, I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that syntax carries semantic expectations. Certain syntax makes you expect a certain model of programming: mutability, imperative control flow, objects everywhere, etc.
Gleam is a good counterexample. It has an ALGOL-ish syntax, but semantically it’s a functional language, and it’s wonderful to read/write.
Same with Ruby: the parts of Ruby that still make me smile are mostly the parts that feel Lisp-adjacent.
It’s kind of wild that we live in a world where, for most programmers, syntax seems to matter more than semantics.
> syntax carries semantic expectations
True! Syntax is a signaling system. Braces and semicolons signal the C-family, so you prepare for statements, mutation, sequential side effects, and objects. Parentheses-first signals Lisp, so you expect recursion and macros. Significant whitespace signals Python. Before you have read a single semantic line, the notation has already established a prior expectation. That is real, and most language discourse ignores it.
But syntax carries more than semantic expectations. It signals era, tribe, tooling, and aesthetics too. The paren signal says Clojure, CL, Emacs, REPL, niche, old-and-proud as loudly as it says functional. Some of the aversion to parentheses originates from sociological resistance to these signals rather than from semantic concerns. Yet honestly, grokking Lisp can make a true polyglot out of a coder. It did it for me. "A Lisper" is not always someone who writes and reads Lisp full-time. Fully fluent Lisper can rationally and successfully use any other PL syntax, because they understand the semantics, even though they'd actively try optimizing the connotation and ergonomics layer, a genuine separate axis.
> In all my time I have never come across a single Lisper, neither in person nor online, and I know far more than a few dozens, who once grokked the REPL-driven workflow and the structural editing idioms only to later, for whatever reason, suddenly start disliking or even hating s-expressions.
And we've never seen bullet holes in these parts of the plane, so there's no point putting armour there.
It's not about survivorship bias, it's about notation. It's like "hating Leibniz's dy/dx because Newton's dot notation already exists" and I'm arguing that people don't just "hate the notation", they simply misunderstand the principles of calculus. I'm not saying that notation preferences don't have consequences, but in this case, I've seen far too often the evidence that programmers ignore the underlying ideas outright, simply because they didn't like the notation on first sight.
I think if you believe that the aids types give for refactoring are equivalent to structural editing, then you are the one who might not get the value of typing information (I say this as a Python person, and am totally willing to accept lack of typing info in plenty of situations)
REPLs are nice and good, but when you're working on large enough systems it's nice to have some static foundations for your facts.
I don't "believe" things, I pragmatically choose the tools that work, the ideas that have merits. I did not say "refactoring is equivalent to structural editing", and I specifically talked about comparing Python REPL to Lisp's.
I don't lack experience working with type systems, I have used over a dozen different PLs, some of them were weirdly unusual - I once even had to program in a language with all operators in Russian.
> when you're working on large enough system
I have built and supported sufficiently large systems in various languages, and have seen firsthand the trade-offs Lisp systems can bring. The holistic experience of using Clojure often can beat systems with advanced static types, but you probably won't ever notice it, because you'd first demand something to "believe" in.
You guys (replying to the comment) seem to be convinced of my one-sided bias for defending s-expression syntax and dying for it. I'm defending it only because it gets bad rap from people unfamiliar with the merits. REPL-driven workflow, live image, structural editing, homoiconicity, code-as-data - none of these require the surface syntax to be parens and Rhombus is the living proof. Structural editing operates on any AST. The actual jewel is homoiconicity, and sadly it gets largely ignored by the majority of programmers today. S-expressions probably are the simplest form of syntax to operate homoiconic entities - the simplest notation that is at once a fully explicit tree and directly the language's own data structure. "I love homoiconicity" does not uniquely entail "I love parentheses", alas, programmers off the bat hate parentheses, often without even attempting to understand their significance - they think it's "aesthetic choice". They don't even for a second look around and get curious for why people keep making new Lisp dialects, 70 years on.
As I said, i think they have been teaching long enough to have a pretty good basis for the claim that racket's syntax can be a problem.
I am firmly in the "after a while you don't see the parentheses" camp, but I have a friend who I respect a lot who works in clojure (with Emacs/cider/paredit) that just doesn't like it.
I mean, I prefer sexprs above all other syntaxes, and I have had people tell me I just need to get used to indentation syntax or whatever they fancy.
well, i guess i know what the grandparent was talking about when they said 'I myself have heard [...] "after a while you dont even see the parentheses" enough times [...]'. Thanks for the example.
My editor balances my parentheses (Emacs Paredit). I rarely think about them. I just think structurally and the editor manages the details.
It really feels like, "when I move through the wasteland, I only focus on the path and GPS is guiding me well".
For some reasons, people tend to prefer having a walk in a forest rather than in z wasteland.
> when I move through the wasteland
You got that exactly backwards. A non-lisper unavoidably has to deal with tons of syntactic and semantic clues - parens, colons & semicolons, square brackets, indentation & white-space, special chars, static type annotations, lsp servers and tree-sitter parsers. Lisp only needs two things - a [small] set of structural idioms, and a live REPL.
Look, if you’re committed to Blub, don’t let me talk you out of it.
It's not unreasonable to dislike coding in s-expression syntax. It is not very readable.
There's a reason the vast majority of programming languages (especially weighted by popularity) use more traditional syntax.
> It is not very readable.
That holds true only for two cases:
- For a programmer who never learned Lisp as their first language. I have met people who learned Clojure as their very first PL and they said it was fun. Later there were utterly confused about Java, Python and Javascript. Going the opposite may feel confusing and identity-breaking.
- Reading static code. In a sense, it can be a bit harder to read a wall of Lisp, say printed on paper. Lispers typically don't inspect "dead code" like that; they'd connect to the live REPL and eval expressions on the go, programming it from "inside out". With experience, it becomes easier to scan the code and mentally parse it. Lisp at that point actually gets far more readable than any other PL. For instance, Lisp code is better suited for smaller screens of smartphones - the code wraps around yet retains its readability. Try that trick with literally any other language, I can 100% guarantee - most of them would look like a huge pile of indecipherable mess.
> For a programmer who never learned Lisp as their first language
Maybe. But I have never heard anyone say that Python is hard to read, and it's one of the most common complaints against Lisps. Just looking at them both it's hard to imagine how one could seriously believe that s-expressions are more readable. `(== a b)` is clearly worse than `a == b`. Even JavaScript programmers know that.
> they'd connect to the live REPL
Yeah I dunno this is the same cop-out Ruby programmers use to justify its lack of static typing. It's fundamentally better if you can understand code without having to run it.
you could also compare
if (a === b && b === c && c === d && d == e)
To scheme's
(= a b c d e)
> `(== a b)` is clearly worse than `a == b`
It's clearly worse just because it moved from infix to prefix and is wrapped by parens? Is `(* (+ a b) (+ c d))` clearly worse than `(a + b) * (c + d);`? Both have a bunch of parens, and one even has a semi colon.
This works both ways. `(list 1 2 3)` is clearly better than:
It's also better than `var l = [1, 2, 3];`How often are you trying to make sense of a bunch of infix arithmetic operations when you're programming? Separately, how often are you creating data structures, navigating data structures, handling data in the form of JSON or XML, parsing that data into your language's native data structures, etc.?
Reading arithmetic in prefix instead of infix is easy, even if it is counter to how you were taught in elementary school. Working with s-expressions for code and data is clearly better than whatever syntax your language uses for code and either directly instantiating data or reaching for JSON or XML.
> justify its lack of static typing
Racket has both Typed/Racket as well as contracts.
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