If one is thinking about not getting a degree and trying to go straight to work, as someone who did so (albiet out of poverty rather than choice) but didn't end up like Zuck, please heed my warning:
Social capital matters more than just about anyone who has a degree can understand and tell you or mentor you about, because the majority of them have always had it, and they tend not even to interact with people without it.
It is a signal about your wealth (and your families ability to deploy it for you), from which follows your stability, your intelligence, your taste, your willingness to play the game, and your belonging in the club. These matter more than EVER in the business world - I've never seen a time when tech is less about engineering than right now.
There's a formula I've bookmarked from someone to help you get better social capital. In order to increase your surface for social capital you need to expand your influence, therefore you need to increase your luck:
L (luck) = D (doing) x T (telling)
Basically, you need to be able to show you are able to do stuff (D) and with enough people seeing this by you sharing (T) through different channels, can open doors. I haven't been doing it as heavily but it has already given me incredible opportunities.
Best way to have social capital is an introduction into a space where money and power exist. Many spaces no matter what you do you will never be able to get in without an intro, and they have extremely few opportunities. Being college buddies with a member of an upper class is one of the only times they will ever socially mix. It is indeed like royalty in every way.
Being at Harvard gets you a lot relative to the population, being around the right clubs at Harvard gives you a lot relative to that. There is meritocracy within the range but nepotism can easily put people in the room. Work at a startup or two run by families of billionaires, and watch their career trajectory, and you will not have any doubt.
To a much smaller extent due to where I live, I noticed this too. From merely the fact that I had a (local economy relative) high paying software job and that I could "make stuff happen" for people with capital or people in the "boys club", I was introduced to an entirely different layer of the city I had no idea about. I noticed how effortlessly the signals transfer and how it all feels very meritocratic, you don't even notice the layer and you just see the people. Until someone who's not in that layer shows up, and suddenly the doors close, the conversation chills and the barriers to the layer become evident.
I am very curious how this changes for young technologists in an AI era, where maybe non-technical people in this layer no longer see a self made technologist as a value add to their cohort.
I purposely use technologist over software developer, since I feelnthe generalist self-made developer typically commands an intuitive breadth of skills not just programming.
I also didn't make out like Zuck, though I am happily working and making games on the side.
Just curious what part of the world you live in? Apologies if that seems like prying
what's an example of something you made happen
encrypted backup of media files which should become public in very specific circumstances
you made a funny
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You know writing for brevity usually means you don't need to explain to your readers that you are writing for brevity...
This is nonsense. It’s referrals for jobs that get filled before the JD is even posted, or discussions about what companies/people _actually_ want when they’re tendering projects. It’s tickets for sold out events, access to golf tee times or bookings that just aren’t available if you have to ask.
Two examples from my life - a friend is a headhunter for tech companies. My last job was been him hitting me up before the job was advertised - I had met the hiring manager and booked an interview before they saw my CV or anyone else even applied to the job.
There’s a major sporting event in my city every year and the tickets sell out within minutes every year, the good ones gone to season ticket holders years in advance. A colleague is a season ticket holder and not interested in that particular game so the last few years I’ve gotten his ticket for less than face value for the cheap seats.
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Honestly I do the reverse of that. I dress like shit and when introducing myself I specifically use the word "immigrant" rather than "expat" because signalling high social position attracts people who want something from me but don't offer anything in return.
Not surprised to hear this from anal_reactor.
I don’t see how this isn’t a massive net negative to you personally other than avoiding occasional odd conversation. You can have genuine conversations both personally and professionally with all sorts of people even if you don’t “dress like shit”. The expat versus immigrant thing is interesting but I assume most can see through that. Sorry to sound critical not really my intention but this is a very interesting approach. It makes the most sense if you’re already set in a great gig or already made your money, no?
There's a reason it's called being "Anal Retentive"
Not to this extreme but most people around me don’t know what I do for money or explore in unallocated time
I’m fashionable and have a nice place but nothing says “software engineer that earns more than most doctors”
People that wake up next to me think I earn about 1/3rd to 1/5th of what I earn, I don’t correct them
But at the same time I do want just a little bit of the hypergamy. Unfortunately, broadcasting to that sentiment seems incompatible with staying low key and attracting more collaborative people, but it could be fun which is my goal. I’ve seen how doctors are treated in the attraction game, its strange and downright scary to see some people code switch around them to be seen as eligible mates, I could have that. I’ve been analyzing it and it has very little to do with perceived utility, and almost solely to do with perceived earning potential combined with the idea of other people wanting them.
When I’ve spent extended time in small towns I inherit that treatment. In small towns across the US, you have people aspiring to hook up with entry level military conscripts because “they make so much money”. When you earn an entire order of magnitude more than that, it’s almost impossible to blend in and people can tell, so you get the code switching hypergamy sentiment.
This is the closest parallel to what people are talking about in this thread, because I’m rarely networking. Recruiters reach out to me over email and linkedin and thats it. Do work, get paid, sign off.
I'm gay so I have easy access to sex and TBH I don't really have much sex, almost nothing at all, because sex with most people just isn't pleasant. I cannot derive pleasure from it if there's no connection, and "wow I love your car" isn't connection.
As a straight male that does well with dating and relationships I am quietly fascinated by this aspect of gay culture and relationships. It changes so many dynamics.
Thankful for the group of guys at our neighborhood bar where we play gays vs straights pool and rib about this stuff. Lol, just wanted to share that anecdote tbh
I enjoy the challenge and the sex. I think the speed limits in the hetero space to be with attractive women keep it interesting for nearly a lifetime. Things devalue when abundant, but it takes a lot for it to become abundant.
But even then, it's not disinteresting instantly, I'm around a lot of people with similar libidos and interest in sustained variety, who have achieved that, and brought similar people together. So I could really only say thank you for your personal account, it's a very individual journey not reflective of everyone else's experience with abundance.
I haven't really done much with material things, I live in and buy what's comfortable for me. But I know there is a large crowd that finds shiny material things attractive and its always an option when I want to optimize for that.
emphasis on attractive, read as in-demand, difficult to stand out amongst
immigrants are people who tend to stay and don’t have plans to return to their home countries. Expats are temporary immigrants typically paid by their company to move and intend to move back to their home countries once the assignment is over.
Ain't nobody calling seasonal minimum-wage workers "expats".
True, but I'm talking about native English speakers. Those people likely have their own terminology in their own language to describe themselves.
Also an ex-patriate is typically in the professional class. So those "English" teachers who teach in Japan, etc., may think of themselves as ex-pats or try to frequent "ex-pat" hangouts but they aren't necessarily because of two things: one, they have not been working at their home office and then transferred and typically they do not hold prelesional degrees -though they may hold "certificates" or whatever. They are in effect temporary workers on a limited stay visa, often needing annual renewal by hopping to a third country to have it renewed themselves. For ex-pats all this or arranged by their employers.
"expat" is rich, "immigrant" is poor. People use the word "expat" to signal they're rich, or at least they want to be.
Here, your theory goes out of the window.
Someone from the US who moves to France for good is not an expat.
Looking at online dictionaries there is no hint of temporariness [0], [1]. Wikipedia refers to it as "a person who resides outside their native country" and often referring to "a professional, skilled worker or artist from a wealthy country" [2], which matches exactly the way I see it used. Similar to other commenters here, I also mostly encounter it being used by skilled, first world professionals to separate themselves "from the plebs" of poorer immigrants.
PS I do not disagree that some use cases could include temporariness (wikipedia mentions academic discourse and something about some british civil workers a few decades ago) but this is by far neither the unique nor the most common way it is used nowadays, nor how historically it has often been used long before.
[0] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/expat...
[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/expatriate
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriate
Expat is an Anglo work migrant, they insist on the distinction as it's in their titular language.
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Perhaps less visible but also more numerous are the guys from China who are too poor to afford the bridewealth who go to poor SEAsian countries to find their brides but also can frequent the hourly hotels that cater specifically to Japanese to Chinese clientele. Euros and N. Americans stand out due to their physical differences.
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Take me on your helicopter, Jeffrey.
He was bragging about having a ti calculator in the 80s was seen as cool in that "interview" he filmed with Steve bannon
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Similar story where as soon as someone made a 100k+ offer to me I dropped out of school and never looked back (was making $12/hr at the time).
In retrospect it was not the best choice because college does give you a unique chance to get connections that let you into "the club" and will send you to the upper echelons of FAANG and early retirement.
I always thought I would just become a better and better engineer cutting my teeth at startups and then make the switch, but now it almost feels like you are a career startup engineer or a career big tech engineer, and making the switch is difficult. One is obviously insanely more lucrative, probably 3-5X with the way equity has exploded.
> Similar story where as soon as someone made a 100k+ offer to me I dropped out of school and never looked back (was making $12/hr at the time).
In the very early 90s, at 15 my part time computer repair job was paying a large share of the family rent, and by 17 I had graduated early and was working full time making 60k/yr. I had scholarships but I didn't take them because by 18 I had a customer base and a reputation. I went back to school in my 30s but it wasn't worth it. School is very help for many people and paths, but not all people and all paths.
I got a job first and my degree later.
At work nobody knows what degree you've got. I mean some people insist to be called Dr. X if they have a Ph.D. (and in some cultures that's more common). You can have a B.Sc. in biology, or an M.Sc. in EE, or a law degree or no degree and nobody knows. As a manager in a large tech company I didn't even know that for the people I managed. I would usually find out people's background through random talk but it's not information I had access to. I was surprised to find one of the rising stars didn't finish his degree and wanted to take some time off to finish it.
Where it does matter is in the hiring process and especially for juniors and larger companies.
> I've never seen a time when tech is less about engineering than right now.
Sad but my experience as well.
As someone who started being more self-educated (I did learn a lot of theory myself) and only later finished my degree (started, dropped out to do some real work, came back much later) I do think a good CS program teaches a lot of important things. Most importantly the ability to learn and understand research in this area. Not all the specific things you're going to learn are going to be applicable all the time, some will some of the time, and not having that background at all is limiting. You can learn this without going through the academic system but it's much harder and most people don't and stay stuck in some sense.
I guess it depends on what you want out of life too. I did not go to Uni, started my career early and had a very comfortable income my entire 20’s. No debt, travelled all over the world, relaxed freelance contracts. I had a lot of free time and low stress.
Later I joined one of my freelance clients as a co-founder (early 30s), more risky than the FAANG path but we’re on the right path to a comfortable pension.
I wouldn’t trade my life for that of some of my FAANG friends.
This is completely correct. It's the same reason why an MBA or PhD can be valuable if you want to go the management track. In Europe specifically - especially in the UK - the class based system is still alive and kicking and is based on subtle tells such as education, name, accent and more. It's less overt than in say India, but still very much present.
I really do think the class system holds us back as a society in Britain, George Orwell had a lot to say on this subject in England your England and I fear the decline he describes in the 1940s only accelerated through the 20th century and into the 21st. That essay is a good read for anyone interested in the topic, although of course much has happened since it was written.
I resented being constantly 'corrected' on the local accent I was picking up from school as a child, but now I appreciate that an RP or close to RP accent turns down the difficulty slider in certain British interactions.
It really does. The classic example I think of is Michael Caine discussing when he wanted to do housing renovations, and before he even submitted designs, he had neighbours and councillors complaining it was going to be "vulgar," "nouveau," and "obscene" simply because of his class. He also talked about the concept of working class people furthering the divide, for example his female family members referring to women of the correct class as "proper ladies" and putting themselves down.
I go back to the UK every so often for work. Being in EU countries is really weird, because they don't have 'class systems' (like the brits).
Deference is given to your professional title, doctor, lawyer etc.
Every nation that was a heart of an empire still has lingering class issues. I've been told by Swedes a non-commoner last name can absolutely open some doors. Though nothing comes close to the UK, which is closer to Japan in this regard than the continental Europe.
> Every nation that was a heart of an empire still has lingering class issues
What nation on Earth doesn't have class issues?
Belgium has a class system. Read up on the death of Sanda Dia, very light punishments since all suspects had well connected parents. Lawyers, judges, doctors, surgeons, business executives, entrepreneurs, bankers, corporate directors, politicians, senior civil servants, police officials.
> I resented being constantly 'corrected' on the local accent I was picking up from school as a child, but now I appreciate that an RP or close to RP accent turns down the difficulty slider in certain British interactions.
The accent bit happens in the US too, to an extent. Depending on the accent you grew up with, you get different responses from people in professional or professional-adjacent settings if you forget to switch the knob back to the more homogenized vaguely Iowa-sounding GenAm accent. This covers a gamut of other accents - regional or not (NE, aave, southern, val, etc).
But it's not nearly as bad as RP in England from what I gather - for one, a pretty decent chunk of the population would normally grow up with a GenAm accent with no forcing, unlike in England where it's a pretty hyper local <5% of the native population.
I did what is referred to as a “fun MSc” (pretmaster) in The Netherlands. It’s a Master programme that doesn’t require much effort and doesn’t put you in too much debt but does allow you to put MSc behind your name. Some engineering firms (companies that do engineering as their core business) require all applicants to have an MSc. It is how I got my foot in the door.
My experience has been quite the opposite. I have done far better than my peers and have less debt. I wonder which country you're in?
Opposite of my experience. I never cared about social networking. I focused only on being good.
Yeah being good is great but... some of the best engineers I have ever met are working at small companies making 150k, while mediocre ones fell into Meta/Google/Tesla jobs during the pandemic hiring frenzy and are now looking at retirement.
If the goal is to be good that is fine, but there is little correlation with salary.
For those looking for one practical way to do this in the US, I can share my story.
In the US I waited until I was 24 years old to transfer to a 4 year university, because my parents were somewhat well off and utterly unwilling to help with my student loans when push came to shove - even though my financial aid was calculated based on their income and assets. At 24, I was reclassified as an "independent student", and my financial aid was now calculated solely on my (nonexistent) assets. The dynamic entirely flipped and I got to go full time, and even live in a dorm and stuff.
Between 18 and 24, then, one has roughly six years to get a 2 year community college degree out of the way for relative pennies on the dollar. That's a lot of time! Federal loans can pay for all or nearly all of this, but CCs are generally cheap enough that even on minimum wage one can generally budget the ~$100-200 per month it takes to take one or two classes per semester. (I wouldn't actually recommend paying out of pocket if you can avoid it, because your quality of life suffers far more from a $200 extra per month when you are making minimum wage vs when you are making six figures, but to each their own.)
If you fear you won't be able to transfer to a 4 year university for whatever reason, there are 2 year degrees which provide on-ramps to paid work; my original degree was going to be like that until I switched plans to the transfer approach.
The time I spent in a 4 year university weren't entirely covered by grants of course, but it was many multiples cheaper than it would have been had I insisted on going right out the gate. I don't think I would have been approved for the six figures of loans I would have needed with that plan with such unwilling parents. I walked away with low figures total in debt, which is much more manageable, and has a much higher ROI than e.g. $30,000 of a house mortgage. I actually somehow ended up holding less student debt than most college degree holders I have met here in Finland, where tuition is free and loans are intended to pay for everything else (housing, etc).
Yes 100%. I was born upper middle class. I have a BIT from a global top 50 University. I understood this after working in cryptocurrency sector in Germany.
After I left Australia and moved to Europe, I realized after some time that 'the matrix' had demoted me into a lower social class. I had to work harder for less money and had access to fewer opportunities.
Then I joined the crypto sector and the people there seemed almost mentally deranged. I didn't understand it at first. They had a way, way, way more cynical view of the world than I did. In retrospect, it feels like they had been under attack by the system, in secret... And they saw any outsider as an enemy. I felt like I was disliked for not being cynical enough. Like my subtle optimism was a signal that I didn't belong. It made me a target.
Then I came back to Australia after having a really tough time and switched back to mainstream tech sector and it was like everyone I worked with was living in some fantasy world. Like 10x more naive than I ever was, all colleagues with master degrees and PhDs... Work was a lot easier too. More forgiving. Also, I was liked. People were almost too nice to me.
The difference is privilege. I can see it very clearly now. It's absolutely not based on culture or race.
Society is highly stratified and I believe there are mechanisms built into the system to prevent people from different classes to meet.
I feel like there is some kind of operating system which manufactures cultures to create separations... Traditions and taboos separate people to prevent them from sharing their experiences and to maintain blind spots which serve to hold the system together. I think I understand why rich people don't like to hang around regular people.
Have you ever wondered why people don't talk to strangers anymore? I went to a train museum recently and noticed that the carriages on old trains had seats facing each other; I sat on one side and thought to myself that it must have been awkward for people to stare at each other in the face, sitting so close to each other, with nothing and nobody standing in between them... for such long trips. Carriages were split between 'smoking' and 'non-smoking'... Nowadays carriages are split between 'normal' and 'quiet'... And the number of quiet carriages seems to have increased over time... It's like there are forces in society which try to prevent people with different experiences from sharing their experiences. This is masked by superficial differences; superficial mental and physical differences are fine but experiential differences are not.
When I watch modern movies, they seem to show characters from an elite perspective. Even characters who are depicted as poor seem to share elite ideologies which makes the characters not believable.
Also, beyond values, there are some material distortions; I've seen too many detective series were the cop is living in a luxury penthouse.
> mechanisms built into the system to prevent people from different classes to meet
IME these mechanisms are a natural outflow of how those with money and power delegate power or invest money.
I have friends with a private plane. I also have friends who are scrambling to make rent, among many other friends always worried about their next paycheck. When you put the two together, you’ll find they can’t really engage in conversation about their lives without extreme embarassment - the plane people could solve most of the immediate problems facing the paycheck folks with barely a dent in their lifestyle.
So the plane people end up around people they can talk about vacation spots with, and the paycheck people hang around people who are empathetic and participate together in mutual aid to get thru. Rarely do the paycheck folks become plane people (they’re too generous or focus on maximizing other aspects of their lives than income). Rarely do the plane people actually help the paycheck people, except indirectly.
Inequality is embarrassing. Our society is embarrassing. That there is no safety net and basic needs being met being demanded by everyone from the poor to the richest of the rich can ONLY happen because they don’t interact. I see a huge backlash coming and it will not hit equally, or fairly. No society can continue like this without breaking down.
> No society can continue like this without breaking down
I wish you were right, but I think you are wrong. This article on poverty in ancient Rome suggests otherwise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_ancient_Rome "Their society may have consisted of a handful of wealthy individuals that made up 0.6% of the population, an army that made up 0.4% of the population, and the poor masses that made up 99% of the populace." I selected Rome because it's my understanding that this is one of the longest lived empires.
The facts for the Roman Empire are not clear, but it looks like massive inequality is the sad default mode for humanity. One might expect that as literacy and information sharing improved, it would be less tolerable by the populace for this inequality to persist. But it seems about as bad as ever. This may be due to the perception that rich people because they "earned" it, despite the fact that it seems patently obvious (to me at least!) that is not the case.
I think you should spend less time on computers, the internet and around tech people, it will blow your mind
Re: movies and elite perspectives, I watched They Cloned Tyrone a while ago and it had a solid "hero movie from a lower socioeconomic class" vibe. I enjoyed the perspective shift and I think it might be a good example of your point.
> Nowadays carriages are split between 'normal' and 'quiet'... And the number of quiet carriages seems to have increased over time... It's like there are forces in society which try to prevent people with different experiences from sharing their experiences.
In the USA at least, people in the normal cars aren't "sharing their experiences". They're playing garbage music from their iPhone speakers (technically not allowed - happens anyway), trying to subdue their giggling/crying/screaming children, loudly conversing amongst themselves, etc. It's a zoo.
Not trying to pick apart your post, I liked reading it in general.
100%* prefer almost anything to sodcasting, facetime calls, and tiktok/youtube/mobile games at max volume
*rounded up
It all used to be smoking and there are still places in the world where trains and busses have seats facing each other. Having sat in those seats in the past I can tell you that people can still perfectly well not talk to each other ;)
There are cultures (e.g. go to Israel) where random people still talk to each other.
I'm not sure I would call what you observed in Europe privilege. I think you were just an outsider/immigrant from a different culture. Different places have different cultures and it takes a long time (if ever) to acquire them. You'll be treated differently if you don't have the right social cues e.g.
In places like the US or Canada this tends to be a lesser effect because it's a big melting point.
I know plenty of really rich people (like billionaire or approaching) that aren't that different than most of us (also rich). You don't magically move to some other "circle" just by having money. It's true there are certain "classes"/cliques in different cultures but it's not as simple as has money vs. hasn't.
> Then I joined the crypto sector and the people there seemed almost mentally deranged
so better than expected then
While I can only peripherally relate to the specifics of your story, I think it beautifully illustrates how interesting and mind expanding it is to spend time in different cultural contexts, and that different cultures can very much co-exist in the same countries or even in the same people.
Everyone should do it more, it really helps put the uncompromising convictions of people around you into perspective and see them as what they often are: a lack of understanding for the breadth of human experience.
Yeah I suppose this is the stuff which you only start to understand after you've been somewhere more than a few years. It also makes you appreciate certain things about where you're from which you didn't even notice and used to take for granted. The European class system combined with a deep cynicism towards tech was a huge surprise to me... Especially for Germany which I thought would be an engineer's paradise.
Australia is extremely egalitarian. I think even more so than the US. In both Australia and the US, you can usually talk to the CEO of the startup directly; they actually like to talk to their staff directly. But in the US, the power differential is usually much bigger, I am more cautious about what I say.
In Germany, there seems to be a more rigid hierarchy and the founders tend to avoid talking to employees directly; they tend to communicate mostly through middle-managers, even in relatively small startups.
DACH societies are extremely class based, in fact most of European royal families come from there. They take it as a point of honor to be rude or at least gruff in daily interactions, it's not about you. Their cynicism is indeed a poison, no need for it as the real life will bring enough unexpected challenges.
I'm german and I was at aldi yesterday, one guy was super nice and happy and wished another a good day, and the guy, including us were surprised how nice he was and he said "we need more nice people in this country". Mind blowing. Taking the plane from croatia to germany is also funny, because there is a grey filter as soon as you enter the airspace
European royal families have pretty much nothing to do with the modern DACH region, and compared to the UK royal families in continental Europe have very little influence.
But the rest is pretty much true unfortunately, though I wouldn't call the behavior rude because it's not seen as rudeness by people who do it. It's more that being optimistic, feeling surprised by things, expressing strong emotions is all seen as naive and pointless. There is also a strong aversion to taking risks which is pretty frustrating. Even when you can show they are calculated risks.
However not the whole DACH region is the same either, the cultures are pretty different, the only thing in common is really only the language. I had better success in Germany than my own country of Switzerland
Battenberg -> mountbatten
I think that is what op meant.
> European royal families have pretty much nothing to do with the modern DACH region, and compared to the UK royal families in continental Europe have very little influence.
Literally the top female figure in the EU structures had married into German nobility. Even without the marriage it's hard to describe the carrier as self-made. Families controlling German automotive industry are interleaved with aristocrats. The trees are obstructing you the view of the forest.
Made me chuckle. I think I know what you mean about "expressing strong emotions" - This is how a lot of Europeans view Americans specifically.
I think the Australian version of naivety is more about meritocratic ideas and flat social hierarchies. Australians aren't usually loud or opinionated. European CEOs may not like it if an employee reaches out to them directly. In Australia, the startup CEO usually tries to be friends with the employees so it feels natural to reach out to the CEO directly and they often reach out to you. In Europe, I get the sense that CEOs believe that they're too important to talk to employees. This has been my experience at startups of similar sizes.
> In Europe, I get the sense that CEOs believe that they're too important to talk to employees
In Switzerland and Germany that's pretty much true, yes. As a contractor I really prefer working with UK and US companies, the communication is as you describe, more friendly and natural, and they are generally more than happy to see someone who wants to take initiatives (in fact it is expected)
It also depends on the company.
I was picking up my buffet dinner at a company event in Europe and the CEO who I somewhat knew was alongside; this was a moderately large company--maybe 10K employees at that point. We went to sit down at a table and the $EUROPEAN_COUNTRY people there were basically "Nah, we'd prefer to speak our own language." So the CEO and I went down to sit at another more welcoming table. (And had a very pleasant discussion about his upcoming family vacation and forwarded him some info.)
Not sure of the point but there are definitely cultural differednces on many dimensions on what you can do and can't do.
As someone who got a Comp Sci degree from a good school and who worked at FAANG right out of school, it seems like this is all that matters to companies looking to hire me.
Shouldn't a bad job market convince people to get a degree?
You only miss a bad job market entry and low salaries, you need every meagre advantage you can get.
100% agree on a degree being a strong signal, by the way.
If we're speaking realistically and not idealistically, then the primary point of a degree is as an investment in a job market. You go deep in debt with the aim of getting many times what you invest in return. But in the case of a bad job market, you're investing serious money (especially in modern times) for what may not ultimately pay off. And even if LLMs don't reach their viable potential, they're still likely going to significantly depress wages/employment for many forms of knowledge work, making a degree even less valuable.
I went to a top 10 university, but won't be encouraging my children to go to university at all, nor will I strongly discourage them. But I will make it clear that it is a choice with pros and cons, and in modern times I personally think that the cons outweigh the pros. Of course if they want to do some form of engineering then it will probably be necessary, but there's lots of wild careers like underwater welding that make big $$$, are fun/physical, highly skilled, and you get paid to learn instead of going 6 figures in debt before you even enter the job market. And it's something that will always be needed, everywhere, and isn't going anywhere.
And the reality of life is, like the article says - where you start is not where you end. Once you get your foot in the door pretty much anywhere, your formal title often quickly becomes much less relevant than the skills you have.
> Shouldn't a bad job market convince people to get a degree?
Maybe, but the degree has to be paid for, with time and money.
Not if the baseline assumption is that the value of a degree continues to go down and you could've climbed the ranks of plumbing instead of getting a white collar degree.
Hi, can you elaborate, I don't think I understand what you mean.
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Most of the value of a CS degree is being able to say that you have a degree truthfully. If you don't have a degree then you just lie and say that you do, which is a moral papercut. Nobody really cares about your education though, they just want their world view to be maintained.
All of my professional jobs have been contingent on background checks and validating (to some degree) the things I put in the record. If I say I have a degree, they call to verify. They called to verify work history, although not being able to reach previous employers wasn't a deal breaker. I don't think just claim you have a degree when you don't works.
If you have a degree from a 'good school', that gets you some credibility by itself, but mostly a 4 year degree says 'this person can commit to doing difficult things without an immediate payoff for around 4 years' which is a valuable thing for employers.