All I want is init scripts and X11, but the horizons are shrinking. I've already compromised with systemd, and I don't like it. I see BSD in my future, or at least a linux distro from the list here https://nosystemd.org/ - probably Gentoo. Nothing to stop me, absolutely nothing at all. I just need a few days free to backup/wipe/reinstall/reconfigure/restore_data and I'll be good. Better make that a few weeks. Maybe on my next machine build. It's not easy, but I build machines for long term use.
As for Linux from Scratch - This is something that's been on my radar, but without the part I'm truly interested in (learning more about SysV) then I'm less inclined to bother. I don't buy the reason of Gnome/KDE - isn't LfS all about the basics of the distro than building a fully fledged system? If it's the foundation for the other courses, but it still feels weak that it's so guided by a future GUI requirement for systemd when it's talking about building web servers and the like in a 500Mb or less as the motivation.
What practical problems do you run into with systemd?
All the compliants I see tend to be philisophical criticism of systemd being "not unixy" or "monolithic".
But there's a reason it's being adopted: it does it's job well. It's a pleasure being able to manage timers, socket activations, sandboxing, and resource slices, all of which suck to configure on script based init systems.
People complain in website comment sections how "bloated" systemd is, while typing into reddit webpage that loads megabytes of JS crap.
Meanwhile a default systemd build with libraries is about 1.8MB. That's peanuts.
Systemd is leaps and bounds in front of other init systems, with robust tooling and documentation, and despite misconceptions it actually quite modular, with almost all features gated with options. It gives a consistent interface for linux across distributions, and provides a familar predictible tools for administators.
I wrote up some issues with service reliability here https://github.com/andrewbaxter/puteron/?tab=readme-ov-file#...
Design-wise, I think having users modify service on/off state *and* systemd itself modify those states is a terrible design, which leads to stuff turning back on when you turn it off, or things turning off despite you wanting them on, etc. (also mentioned higher up)
FWIW after making puteron I found dinit https://github.com/davmac314/dinit which has a very similar design, so presumably they hit similar issues.
Systemd usually only modifies the state if is somehow configured to do so. Socket activations, timers, depwndencies. They all tell systemd what to do and can usually be modified if needed.
> But there's a reason it's being adopted: it does it's job well
My problem with systemd is that it's taking over more and more and locking in. It is encouraging developers to have a hard dependency on it, and making it harder to have an alternative.
My problem is not philosophical with "it's a monolith, it's not unixy". My problem is "it's on the way to lock me in".
We like to complain about lock-in across the board. I don't see why it would be different with systemd.
I think you got it backwards. Systemd is a standardization that is appealing to developers. They want to adopt it because it makes their life easier. It is just nice to know that all the tools you need for a system are there and work together. Pluggability is hard to maintain and is only done if there is no standardization.
I somehow don't think your gripe is with systemd but with developers who prefer the easy route. To be honest though you get something for free. If you want it differently then you have to do it yourself.
I don't think it's backwards; it's not incompatible with what you said.
> It is just nice to know that all the tools you need for a system are there and work together.
It is indeed! Just like everybody uses WhatsApp for a reason. But because everybody uses WhatsApp, it is very difficult to get traction with an alternative. That's the lock-in part.
It is easier for developers to only care about systemd. It's often worse: many times I have seen projects that only work with Ubuntu. Of course I understand how it was easier for the developers of those projects to not learn how to "be nice" and "do it right". That does not mean I should be happy about it.
> If you want it differently then you have to do it yourself.
Or I should support alternatives, which I do. I am not saying you are not allowed to use systemd, I am just explaining why I support alternatives. Even though systemd works.
I'd argue that "do it right" and "be nice" are incredibly subjective. I'd say they were already nice enough to write open source software. And I don't think it is wrong to to write what you want to write.
The comparison with WhatsApp has a a huge flaw: WhatsApp is not LGPL licensed software. No one can really take systemd away. There is very little risk in depending on it apart from less choice. But I already argued that the expectation of choice in free software is a big ask.
And there is no one stopping anyone from implementing systemd's api surface.
The reason why I say you got it backwards is that you are against systemd making available all their tools when in reality it is the distro maintainers choice to use them and the developers choice to depend on them. Most of systemd is optional and nothing prevents developers from writing abstractions. But the simple truth is that systemd is offering a compelling value that people are just accepting.
> Systemd is a standardization that is appealing to developers. They want to adopt it because it makes their life easier. It is just nice to know that all the tools you need for a system are there and work together. Pluggability is hard to maintain and is only done if there is no standardization.
That's the official story, but like most official stories, it doesn't really hold up to scrutiny.
I built an entire system from scratch with over 1,500 packages installed. Everything under the sun. Works just fine with sysvinit. Completely seamless.
If KDE/Gnome can't figure out how to fit in with the overall system design the same way thousands of other packages somehow manage to do, then their services are no longer required. Good riddance to their bloated asses. I prefer to invest my CPU cycles in better software.
Init scripts for services and such are properly handled by the distro maintainer (packager), not the developer, although it's always nice to see examples he's provided to help guide the development of my preferred version.
I am honestly happy for you that you made your system the way you want it. That is a good thing and please keep doing what you are doing.
This is not relevant to the average user. The average PC user doesn't use Linux and the average Linux user uses an off the shelve distro. For these distros it is very attractive to have a bunch of core services ready that work together because they are released as one. It can be done but why the hassle? What is the upside for the maintainer apart from maybe the moral high ground?
Software projects can also benefit from standardization. They can concentrate on writing functionality instead of maintaining abstraction layers. And I believe the more mainstream distros choose the SystemD stack the more it becomes the default or at least the initial implementation for their software.
We also have to keep in mind that this kind of standardization is nothing new. Pretty much every distro depends on the GNU coreutils. Maybe not on the binaries themselves but at least on their API. That is not very different from SystemD. We have a POSIX standard.
Final word regarding sysvinit: I worked with sysvinit, upstart and systemd and having an opinionated config format for services is so much better, in my opinion. Not having to read a whole shell script to know how a service works is such an improvement and the easy overrides for units (for example distro packaged ones) is amazing.
Note: In my post I counted distro maintainers as developers.
You lost me when you started talking about the average user. I don't care about that guy or his desires. At all.
I miss the days when computing was about the above average guy--not the simpleton who needs his hand held, so everything has to be dumbed down to the lowest level to suit him.
Heard it all before, and I'm not interested in anything systemd has to "offer." Especially all the bugs and security issues.
This distro isn't for you. That's OK. systemd, and wayland, etc that some are so excited about isn't for me or a number of others, and it will never be. We are going our separate way. Just look at all the comments below. Lots of upvotes too.
It's not a lock-in as much as making a much better product.
For example, I never liked the idea of having my programs to manually daemonize, manage logs, set up permissions and all that boring, but security-critical stuff. And with systemd, I don't have to! Program reads from stdin/stdout, maybe gets socket from socket activation, and systemd does the rest.
Is it lock-in? Only because other system suck. Like, seriously, what stopped xinetd from having rudimentary volatile "on/off" control, so I could disable misbehaving service? Or why is start-stop-daemon so _stupid_, discarding all startup error messages? And don't get me started on all the different init file dialects for each system.
Maybe if the sysvinit programmers actually cared about providing nicer services to app developers, we would never end up with systemd.
The problem with the word "sysvinit" here is it's sort of a red herring. BSD init is better, in my opinion. I don't like managing all those symlinks. Plus, sysvinit is an old 90s application and its code does have some cruft built up over the years that could be removed and simplified. I'm devising a new init for my system that's much simpler than sysvinit and much closer to BSD.
"BSD init", "much simpler"... So does this mean you still expect applications to manage their own logs, daemonization and security setup themselves?
If yes, that's yet another init system not made for application writers.
Manage their own logs, daemonization, and security? The humanity! How will they ever manage all of that?
Come on man. It's been done for decades.
It doesn't take a giant bloated infrastructure to manage most people's needs, which are quite basic in most cases.
.. and that opinion is a great explanation of why systemd won.
Turns out, a lot of people are not happy with "Come on man. It's been done for decades." attitude, and they wanted something new and much better. And so when something new came up, they jumped on it with both feet.
It's instructive to read Debian CTTE discussion on init systems (btw I think it's best tech drama of 2013, highly recommend) - a lot of people dismissed the sysvinit early on because it had no features (example [0]), which means the choices were either upstart and systemd. And between two of those, systemd is a clear win.
Read the thread and look at how many highly technical people with no relation to Fedora or Poettering is ready to choose _anything else_ just to get away from "it's been done for decades".
[0] https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00234.html
> .. and that opinion is a great explanation of why systemd won.
Completely wrong and ignorant.
> Turns out, a lot of people are not happy with "Come on man. It's been done for decades." attitude, and they wanted something new and much better.
And then they got systemd. LOL
Like Dr. Phil said, "How's that workin out for ya?" LOL
> And so when something new came up, they jumped on it with both feet.
You just did what your type always does: whatever you're told.
> It's instructive to read Debian CTTE discussion on init systems
No, it really isn't. lol
> the choices were either upstart and systemd. And between two of those, systemd is a clear win.
Well, it's too bad none of the other good options were considered, isn't it? When your only "options" are a giant douche or a turd sandwich, the outcome can't possibly be good.
See U.S. presidential elections for one of the best examples of this dynamic. Two complete fucking losers are presented every time, and 40% of the population are mesmerized by the spectacle and think there can be no other possible options at all. That's you.
The fact is, many of you noobs don't even know how to write a shell script, yet somehow feel qualified to comment on this subject, as if your opinion is worth anything at all.
How many daemons have you personally written? Hmm? Do you even know how to write any C at all? Daemonizing a process isn't rocket science. It's a double fork. So simple even you could do it, I bet.
The problem is you're too technically ignorant to understand that none of your "technical" arguments hold any water at all. It's just you repeating the bullshit you were told, as usual.
Every Big Lie being told relies on Useful Idiots like you to help support it.
Logging is not difficult. Double forking is not difficult. If you find any of that to be a challenge, you're not qualified to write a daemon. If you can't successfully set up and run something like runit or any of the many other good sysvinit alternatives, you're not qualified to administer a Linux system. Period.
You make all these appeals to authority ("highly technical people" saying this or that) like that means something. You forget that you're speaking to the guy who built his own operating system. I don't need any guidance from "highly technical people" on what init system to pick. Apparently you're the type who does.
That's what your entire argument basically boils down to--one giant appeal to authority.
If everyone else was jumping off a bridge, would you do it too? Of course you would, without a moment's hesitation. Because you're a God damned lemming.
Now get off my lawn.
wow, you don't really get what "open source" or "working together with others" is, do you?
Ohh... I have sooooo many issues with systemd. The core systemd is fine, and the ideas behind it are sound.
But it lacks any consistency. It's not a cohesive project with a vision, it's a collection of tools without any overarching idea. This is reflected in its documentation, it's an OK reference manual, but go on and try to build a full picture of system startup.
To give you concrete examples:
1. Systemd has mount units, that you would expect to behave like regular units but for mounts. Except that they don't. You can specify the service retry/restart policy for regular units, including start/stop timeouts, but not for mounts.
2. Except that you can, but only if you use the /etc/fstab compat.
3. Except that you can not, if systemd thinks that your mounts are "local". How does it determine if mounts are local? By checking its mount device.
4. Systemd has separate behaviors for network and local filesystems.
5. One fun example of above, there's a unit that fires up after each system update. It inserts itself _before_ the network startup. Except that in my case, the /dev/sda is actually an iSCSI device and so it's remote. So systemd deadlocks, but only after a system update. FUN!!!
6. How does systemd recognize network filesystems? Why, it has a pre-configured list of them: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/4c6afaab193fcdcb1f5a... Yes, you read it correctly. A low-level mount code has special case for sshfs, that it detects by string-matching.
7. But you can override it, right? Nope. This list is complete and authoritative. Nobody would ever need fuse.s3fs . And if you do, see figure 1.
I can go on for a looooong time.
5 and 6 sounds like good candidates for a bug reports/PR, if there's not already some "right" way to do it.
They're already reported. And ignored. Have you _seen_ the systemd issue backlog?
The iSCSI loop issue: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/34164 It keeps popping up again and again and is summarily ignored.
The remote FS detection also came up multiple times, and the maintainers don't care.
> and the maintainers don't care.
I'm not sure that's fair. I think better proof of this would be a rejected PR rather than a neglected bug report.
This is Linux, after all. Problems found with specific hardware are almost always solved by people with that hardware, not the maintainers, who are usually busy with the 99%.
The problem here is more fundamental.
Lennart refused to make all the /etc/fstab options available in regular mount units. And yes, there was an issue, no I'm too tired to look for it. The wording was pretty much: "Give up, and gtfo, this is not going to happen. Just because."
I'm convinced that systemd can't be fixed by its current team of maintainers. They are just... untidy.
I don't know about you, but if I end up writing low-level code that _needs_ to know whether the mounted file system is "remote", I won't do that by comparing against a hard-coded list of filesystems inside PID0. Or by using wild heuristics ("if it's on a block device, then it's local").
I would put these heuristics in a helper tool that populates the default values for mount units. Then allow users to override them as needed. With a separate inspector tool to flag possible loops.
This is one example of a more general complaint about systemd and related projects: they force policy, rather than simply providing mechanisms.
I recently did a deep dive on my laptop because I was curious about an oddity - the /sys file to change my screen backlight (aside, why /sys and not /dev anyway?) was writable only by root - yet any desktop shell running as my user had no problem reacting to brightness hotkeys. I wondered, how did this privilege escalation work? Where was the policy, and what property of my user account granted it the right to do this?
It turns out the answer is that the desktop shells are firing off a dbus request to org.freedesktop.login1, which is caught by systemd-logind - or elogind in my case, since I do not care for systemd. A login manager seemed an odd place for screen brightness privilege escalation, but hey if it works whatever - it seemed like logind functioned as a sort of miscellaneous grab bag of vaguely console-related stuff. Generally speaking, it consults polkit rules to determine whether a user is allowed to do a thing.
Not screen brightness, though. No polkit rules. Nothing in pkaction. logind was unilaterally consenting to change the brightness on my behalf. And on what grounds? It wasn't documented anywhere so I had to check the source code, where I found a slew of hardcoded criteria that mostly revolve around physical presence at the machine. Want to change screen brightness over ssh? Oh but why would you ever want to do that? Hope you have root access, you weirdo.
I removed elogind. A few odds and ends broke. But nobody tells me what to do with my machine.
> I think better proof of this would be a rejected PR rather than a neglected bug report.
I understand the sentiment you're expressing here, and it's often a reasonable one.
However, when every sharp edge case I've encountered with SystemD (both professionally and personally) ends either in a open Github Issue whose discussion from the project maintainers ends up being "Wow. That's tricky. I'm not sure whether or not that behavior is correct. Maybe we should do something about this or document this so other folks know about it." (and then nothing happens, not even the documentation) or a closed Github Issue with "Sorry, your usecase is <strike>inconvenient to implement</strike> unsupported. E_NOTABUG", expecting PRs is expecting way too much.
I've long been in the habit of reading accounts like yours, understanding the truth and wisdom that's being expressed, then noping the fuck out of the tech/product/situation in question. It has saved me a lot of trouble over the years. Even as others are completely mystified. Some people just like abuse, I guess.
"Sweet dreams are made of this..."
OK, think it through...
How do we determine that a specific instance of a filesystem mount is "remote", or even requires a "network"? Consider that the network endpoint might be localhost, a netlink/unix/other socket, or, say, an IP address of the virtual host (practically guaranteed to be there and not truly "remote").
systemd has .mount units which are way more configurable than /etc/fstab lines, so they'd let you, as the administrator, describe the network dependency for that specific instance.
But what if all we have is the filesystem type (e.g. if someone used mount or /etc/fstab)?
Linux doesn't tell us that the filesystem type is a network filesystem. Linux doesn't tell us that the specific mount request for that filesystem type will depend on the "network". Linux doesn't tell us that the specific mount request for that filesystem type will require true network connectivity beyond the machine itself.
So, before/without investing in a long-winded and potentially controversial improvement to Linux, we're stuck with heuristics. And systemd's chosen heuristic is pretty reasonable - match against a list of filesystem types that probably require network connectivity.
If you think that's stupid, how would you solve it?
> How do we determine that a specific instance of a filesystem mount is "remote", or even requires a "network"?
Like systemd authors do! Hard-code the list of them in the kernel, including support for fuse and sshfs. Everything else is pure blasphemy and should be avoided.
Me? I'd have an explicit setting in the mount unit file, with defaults inferred from the device type. I would also make sure to not just randomly add landmines, like systemd-update-done.service. It has an unusual dependency requirements, it runs before the network filesystems but after the local filesystems.
I bet you didn't know about it? It's a service that runs _once_ after a system update. So the effect is that your system _sometimes_ fails to boot.
> systemd has .mount units which are way more configurable than /etc/fstab lines
It's literally the inverse. As in, /etc/fstab has _more_ options than native mount units. No, I'm not joking.
Look at this man page: https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/syst... The options with "x-systemd." prefix are available for fstab.
Look for the string: "Note that this option can only be used in /etc/fstab, and will be ignored when part of the Options= setting in a unit file."
Sounds like your admin, distro, or the systemd team could pay some attention to systemd-update-done.service
The "can only be used in /etc/fstab" systemd settings are essentially workarounds to do those things via fstab (and workaround fstab related issues) rather than depend on other systemd facilities (c.f. systemd-gpt-auto-generator). From a "what can you do in /etc/fstab without knowing systemd is working behind the scenes" point of view, then yes, systemd units are vastly more configurable.
This service is the standard part of systemd. And my distro is a bog-standard Fedora, with only iSCSI as a complication.
Are you surprised that such a service exists? I certainly was. And doubly so because it has unusual dependency requirements that can easily lead to deadlocks. And yes, this is known, there are open issues, and they are ignored.
> From a "what can you do in /etc/fstab without knowing systemd is working behind the scenes" point of view, then yes, systemd units are vastly more configurable.
No, they are not. In my case, I had to use fstab to be able to specify a retry policy for mount units (SMB shares) because it's intentionally not exposed.
And yes, there's a bug: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/4468 with the expected GTFO resolution: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/4468#issuecomment-...
So there's literally functionality that has been requested by people and it's available only through fstab.
> How do we determine that a specific instance of a filesystem mount is "remote", or even requires a "network"?
The '_netdev' option works a treat on sane systems. From mount(8):
It should work on SystemD and is documented to in systemd.mount but -surprise surprise- it doesn't reliably work as documented because SystemD is full of accidental complexity.Sure, and systemd would translate that directly into a dependency on network startup, which is precisely equivalent to the approach I mentioned that depends on operator knowledge. It's configuration, not "just works" inference.
> Sure, and systemd would translate that directly into a dependency on network startup...
You'd think so, but the Github Issue linked by GP shows that the machinery is unreliable:
> ...not "just works" inference.Given that SystemD can't reliably handle explicit use of _netdev, I'd say it has no hope of reliably doing any sort of "just works" inference.
It's so refreshing to discover that the "I found one bug in systemd which invalidates everything" pattern continues in the year of our lord 2026.
I saw many corner cases in systemd over the years. And to echo the other poster in this thread, they typically are known, have Github issues, and are either ignored or have a LOLNO resolution.
And I'm not a systemd hater. I very much prefer it to the sysv mess that existed before. The core systemd project is solid. But there is no overall vision, and the scope creep resulted in a Cthulhu-like mess that is crashing under its own weight.
> "I found one bug in systemd which invalidates everything"
I'll refer back to the story of Van Halen's "no brown M&Ms" contract term and the reason for the existence of that term and ones like it.
"Documented features should be reasonably well-documented, work as documented, and deviations from the documentation should either be fixed or documented in detail." is my "no brown M&Ms" for critical infrastructure software. In my professional experience, the managers of SystemD are often disinterested in either documenting or fixing subtle bugs like the one GP linked to. I find that to be unacceptable for critical infrastructure software, and its presence to be indicative of large, systemic problems with that software and how work on it is managed.
I really wish SystemD was well-managed, but it simply isn't. It's a huge project that doesn't get anywhere near the level of care and giveashit it requires.
Just one bug? No, there's way more than that.
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That is one of my problems with systemd: it has way to much "magic" built in. SysVinit/OpenRC and related are easy to understand and debug: they only do what's in the scripts.
I love systemd, but you've hit on one of my biggest complaints. The mounting promises a cohesive system and instead gives you a completely broken mess, with mounts being split across .mount unit files, fstab, and worst of all, .service unit files. It's a totally incoherent mess, and that's only _after_ you figure out why nothing is working right, and build a complex mental model of every single feature that does or doesn't work in which scenario. Knowledge you only gain after screaming and tearing your hair out for a weekend. Your reward? A totally incoherent, inconsistend mess.
I hate mounts in systemd.
And don't forget automounts! They are so much fun!
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OpenRC on Gentoo works great. I have a full bleeding edge Wayland KDE Plasma with Pipewire setup that I game on.
OpenRC recently added user "units" aka services running as a user after a session start. Something that many new GUI user space applications rely on for various things.
There are growing pains. https://bugs.gentoo.org/936123
Especially when upstream hard requires systemd. More annoying when there's no real reason for it.
But there is a way forward and I highly recommend people try to build software to work without systemd before assuming it's always there.
To pile on, a minimal OpenRC service file is just as complicated as a minimal SystemD service file; that is, they're both almost-exclusively composed of key-value pairs. For instance, this is the service file for the 'rsyncd' service [0]:
Like SystemD, OpenRC provides pre/post start/stop hooks that you can use to call out to other programs.Unlike SystemD if you need to make nontrivial decisions at service-status-management time, you have the option of putting your scripts or calls to other programs inline, rather than hoping that SystemD gives you the hooks you need in the places you need them and passes in the data you require. [1]
[0] And if 'rsyncd' was supervised with 'supervise-daemon', you wouldn't need to specify the location of the pidfile.
[1] As a trivial example, you can dynamically depend on other services depending on system configuration (as PostgreSQL does). As a less-trivial example, you can check for and warn the administrator about common service misconfigurations with the same mechanism that provides service startup and status information (as several services do).
> As a trivial example, you can dynamically depend on other services depending on system configuration (as PostgreSQL does)
Depending on what you want to do, a generator might be appropriate:
> Their main purpose is to convert configuration and execution context parameters that are not native to the service manager into dynamically generated unit files, symlinks or unit file drop-ins
Well, here are the relevant parts of the service file:
If PostgreSQL has been configured, this reads its config file, looks to see if it's configured to use 'syslog' as its log destination, and -if so- adds a dependency on the 'logger' "meta-service". [0]What would this look like with a systemd service file generator?
[0] What's a "meta-service"? 'provide postgresql' makes the service started by this service file provide the 'postgresql' "meta-service". This is useful for PostgreSQL because you can install multiple versions of the software simultaneously... so the service files are named like postgresql-17, and postgresql-18. The 'logger' "meta-service" is useful because who cares which syslog software you have installed... you only care that it speaks syslog.
Yeah parsing config files with regular expressions that may or may not properly handle quoting or line continuations etc is… not a great idea in my opinion.
But of course in this particular case, because systemd makes the /dev/log journal/syslog socket a dependency of every unit by default, there is no need to encode this dependency at all.
Anyway if you really wanted to you could write this script as a generator and have it put a drop-in in /run/systemd/system/postgres.service.d. But… why?
Okay, I'll rephrase the question a bit and ask it again.
Imagine that you have a service that has a configuration-dependent dependency on rsyslog. For whatever reason, journald's not an option... maybe it's simply not installed, or this service depends on rsyslog-specific behaviors that journald simply doesn't replicate. It doesn't matter why this configuration-dependent dependency exists, it simply exists and there's no workaround.
Assuming that the rsyslog service is named 'rsyslog', the service with the dependency is named 'stupid-service', the configuration file is named '/etc/stupid-service/stupid-service.conf', and the configuration option to search that config file for is 'logging = syslog', what would the systemd service file generator look like to make 'stupid-service' depend on 'rsyslog' if and only if that config file contains 'logging = syslog'?
You appear to have worked with these service file generators, which is why I'm asking. I expect you'd know what the generator to accomplish this trivial task would look like, or if it was even possible with generators.
Also:
> Yeah parsing config files with regular expressions that may or may not properly handle quoting or line continuations
Nah, this is substring matching and column-cutting. The only use of regexes ("#.*") is to remove comments. Go check out the format docs for the PostgreSQL config file. [0] It's pretty basic and straightforward.
[0] <https://www.postgresql.org/docs/17/config-setting.html#CONFI...>
Put a script in /etc/systemd/system-generators/ that does something like
> It's pretty basic and straightforwardPostgres config supports line continuations, so the OpenRC service file you quoted is buggy; it could potentially match a file just because some other option contained a multi-line value that had the string "log_destination = syslog" in it.
The whole philosophy of systemd is to move away from these kinds of "simple" and "mostly working" pile-of-shell-script systems to actually-unconditionally-correct configuration that doesn't come with bonus text processing surprises.
> Postgres config supports line continuations, so the OpenRC service file you quoted is buggy; ...
Where's that documented?
I tried the obvious things followed by a config reload. Here are the results (the 'log_destination' parameter is on line 482 of the config file):
What's the line continuation character for 'postgresql.conf'? Are you certain that you're not getting 'postgresql.conf' confused with 'pg_hba.conf'? That file is documented to support line continuations: [0] > The whole philosophy of systemd is to move ... to actually-unconditionally-correct configuration that doesn't come with bonus text processing surprises.That's truly a lovely and laudable goal. In this system, how does you propose one processes a flat text config file with a mix of 'K = V' and 'K V' settings without doing ordinary, boring text processing? Do you propose that one waits until "systemd-configd" gets created and every daemon of any importance is updated to put its config in there instead of in flat files? If so, has there been any notable progress on this in the last ~fifteen years?
> Put a script in /etc/systemd/system-generators/...
Thanks for finally answering my question. Is the way to conditionally update service dependencies really to dump text files in magic locations? Is there no 'systemctl' (or similar) command that allows one to manipulate dependencies for a specific service that one can call from a generator?
[0] <https://www.postgresql.org/docs/17/auth-pg-hba-conf.html>
I wonder if the impetus behind the (terrible) monolithic design of systemd was to force standardization across distros. The choice was more political than technical.
If different choices were available for init, DNS resolver, service control manager, volume manager, etc... we would adversely contribute to the schizo distro landscape the people holding the money bags are actively trying to get away from.
With systemd it's an all-or-nothing deal. You get the good with the bad, but all distros shit the bed in the same, deterministic way.
Not even Windows does this. There is no "systemd" equivalent. Yes, Windows ships as a single OS—as do the BSDs—but all the components were developed separately.
If all they wanted was a service control manager, there were many (better) options already in existence they could have used.
systemd is not a monolith, and distros make different choices on what portions of systemd they which to ship and enable by default.
For example, not all distros ship and use systemd-resolved by default, to choose from your list.
systemd-boot competes with grub
Outside of Arch(-derived) enthusiast circles, I haven't seen systemd-boot used anywhere.
It has some really nice tools and features that Grub lacks (i.e. it has tooling for checking the state of things like secure boot and analysing the security risks of your boot configuration), but every mainstream Linux OS I've used still relies on tools like Grub to boot.
I have some gripes with systemd-boot's limitations (notably, the insistence on an unthemed, white-on-black menu system that's not exactly enticing to Linux newcomers) but it's hard to deny its merits. Grub is tied together with a spider web of scripts calling each other, loading modules, generating code that is then executed again, and one mistake in one script can cause the bootloader config four scripts down the line to fail, leaving the system unbootable; the concise configuration file for systemd-boot makes for a much better bootloader configuration system in my opinion.
OpenSUSE uses systemd-boot for its GRUB2 BLS implementation (<https://news.opensuse.org/2024/10/08/grub2-bls/>). It's really awesome because it lets me boot from Btrfs snapshots on a fully LUKS2 argon2id encrypted system.
The argon2id issue remains an annoying problem (AFAIK Grub still doesn't support argon2id), but for tools like Timeshift there are Grub scripts to also boot BTRFS snapshots.
NixOS uses it by default
and grub is a rotting pile while systemd-boot is a simple boot entry multiplexer that rides off the kernel's capability of being run as an EFI executable, it just happens to live in systemd's tree. not a good example
It's a pretty good example of why people think systemd is bloated and does too much. It's a simple boot entry multiplexer. Does it need to live in systemd's tree?
Nobody complains about a very wide variety of only vaguely related utilities being in the Gnu coreutils tree.
Nor the 20 or so odd reimplementations of various filesystem drivers and LUKS encryption in the grub2 tree.
But, who is counting?
I'm tired of grub too. That's one of the packages on my shitlist. Currently it is broken on my system, as it has been in the past from time to time. I'm tired of the unreliability and have decided to write my own bootloader instead. It will be simple and bulletproof.
I already laid the basic foundation and have the kernel loading into memory and booting. Next step is to get the memory map and pass that along. It's BIOS only for the moment; EFI support will come later, along with other architectures. (PowerPC is next.)
Because they're not all called coreutils. They've got names like sed, awk, and grep, not systemd-named, systemd-analyze, systemd-networkd, systemd-resolved, systemd-timesyncd. I guess that's a good thing though?
so its a marketing problem, irregardless of whether it's in systemd's tree because the systemd maintainers want to maintain it in-tree
Even better example, I don't think systemd-boot is broadly adopted yet although there are certainly some distributions that use it.
The thing is not just about distros and big developers it is about every developer out there who wants to write system software. Instead of doing the work to support multiple different APIs they can concentrate on the software. Its just easier. You don't have to track the compatability of different tools.
For many people Linux is not an academic exercise. It is a tool they want to use. The don't care to use a different network manager or resolver.
And that is exactly the same as Windows. There is one solution across the whole system and it works together because it is written by the same people and tested together.
Try Alpine? It's not designed to be a "desktop" OS but it functions well as one. I find it easy enough to wrap my head around the whole thing, and it uses OpenRC by default.
Almost wonder if this kind of thing will be an impetus for GNU Hurd to get more momentum. I saw an update recently that they're now finally properly supporting 64bit and sounds like there's active dev going on there again.
It apparently uses SysVInit
Others have been reminding us of the *BSD init systems, and I remind that SysVinit is not going away from Linux while projects like Devuan and others continue. GNU Hurd is another other-than-systemd learning opportunity.
I would somewhat doubt it; the negative aspects of Mach’s design are a technical albatross around the neck of any kernel.
Apple has had to invest reams of engineering effort in mitigating Mach’s performance and security issues in XNU; systemd dissatisfaction alone seems unlikely to shift the needle towards Hurd.
I've heard of Hurd, but never felt tempted to try it. That could be an interesting option.
hurd init is a lot like systemd architecturally, it just gets to use kernel provided ipc rather than having to manage its own. if your objection to systemd is its architecture you don't want anything to do with hurd.
Did they finally add USB support?
> All I want is init scripts and X11, but the horizons are shrinking. I've already compromised with systemd, and I don't like it. I see BSD in my future
Freedesktop wants to kill X11 and are working continuously on that, to the point if rejecting patches and banning developers.
Popular desktop environments are increasingly depending on Linux-only things. KDE has officially removed support for FreeBSD in Plasma login manager (because of logind dependency).
Gnome 50 plans to obsolete X11 completely.
If you want that simple, bright future of yours, you’ll have to fight/work for it.
> Freedesktop wants to kill X11
There is a difference of opinion. Freedesktop wants to "stabilize" X11. That does mean that they do not want to evolve Xorg. However, it does not mean that you cannot keep using it or that they are going to take it away. In fact, it is still being maintained and will be for a long time.
You can interpret the rejecting of patches and banning of developers as political. However others see the rejection and banning as protecting the stablity that is the goal.
If your goal is for Xorg to evolve and not to stabalize (fair), you may prefer Xlibre as a project.
Phoenix looks pretty cool too.
KDE Plasma and GNOME are trying to kill X11. Or, at least, they do not want to maintain support for it in their projecs. And COSMIC did not bother to add support for X11 at all. That will probably be the trend on desktop Linux.
> Freedesktop wants to kill X11 and are working continuously on that, to the point if rejecting patches and banning developers.
Are you referring to the developer of Xlibre, who submitted multiple broken patches & kept breaking ABI compatibility for little to no reason[0]? Or someone else?
[0]: see discussion & linked issues in the announcement https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44199502
I’m talking about that developer, yes. And I’m sure there’s more to the story than just ABI compatibility.
He wanted X11 to thrive. Freedesktop however has a goal for Wayland ultimately to replace X11, right? X11 should die. This is not hyperbole. It’s a stated goal.
So I think there’s more to the story than the simplified ABI aspect often mentioned here on HN.
Also Gnome killing X11 support is real.
So is KDE backing down on BSD-support.
These are facts, not opinions.
> I’m sure there’s more to the story than just ABI compatibility
The number one goal for the Xwayland / Xorg devs is stability. Breaking ABI compatibility is a pretty big problem if stability is your goal.
We don't have to guess, the PRs & history are still there. You could easily go through them and find examples of the project members being unreasonable about ABI compatibility.
But of course that would destroy the narrative.
[flagged]
I see this was your first HN contribution and you didn't post any links, so maybe that's what they were thinking?
Links? To what? "First contribution"? I'm not new around here.
(If anyone is wondering what he's referring to--I said that I was mystified why my post would be immediately downvoted.)
Let's try again, much shorter this time:
I am releasing a distro soon that is right up your alley. SEE MY PROFILE for info.
There is nothing visible on your profile[0] other than a derogatory comment about HN in your bio.
If you're seeing something there, then I would advise you to look at it again when you're logged out so that you can see what others are seeing.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=its_ubuntu2