It's a little like "unlimited holidays". If you turn up on day 1 and then say "Right, I'm off on my unlimited holidays! See you never!" and disappeared, they would stop paying you. There is an implicit fair use clause in all unlimited offers - I know a guy who pushed back on "unlimited holidays" because he didn't want to get penalised in performance reviews and it turns out that in his UK-based org it was 29 days a year, or one day more than the legal statutory minimum.
Firms like penpot are basically saying "look, if you pay us this much, we're not going to put hard quotas on you, just get on with it", but if you then try storing backups of annas archive on it, they are probably going to suggest that you are not operating within the spirit of the agreement, even if you're within the letter of it: fair use will apply.
Some people like to know where they stand. They want hard quotas. So fine, ask them for hard quotas. Ask for the fair use clause and understand it.
Most of us know what it means (it's a soft quota with fair use limitations), and are happy with not abusing the tier and having a bit more freedom, though.
Hah. I'm a self employed freelancer, but a friend works for (MegaCorp Intl) and every time we go for beers he mentions that he has "Unlimited Paid Time Off". But whenever I ask if that means he could take a few months to hike the Andes with me, he says.... well, no, actually they'd fire him if he took too much time. How much is too much? I ask. Well basically anything that would make them notice his absence, apparently.
And there's a problem in the other direction too - I don't expect people who really can leave for a few months without their absence being noticable to have much job security.
This is a corporate culture thing. I can be in the middle of nowhere for months, and it makes no difference to my clients. No one even notices. I have a phone that always rings, and laptop. I don't have a corporate health plan or a 401k but I don't have to ask permission..
The issue is that if storage is too cheap, people will inevitably mine filecoin on it. Additionally, promising "unlimited storage" and not holding that promise might be a legal liability.
Does it really matter if in real-world-use 99% of the users never hit any limit? And I cannot blame anyone to use "unlimited" instead of "fair use, with reasonably large limits so that you will (probably) never see any restrictions in your use of the product"
People see 'unlimited' and will do everything in their power to 'fact-check' it, forcing the producer to place a 'hard cap' and making everyone's life worse.
Can confirm. Worked at a startup with some very generous (though not “unlimited”) limits designed to allow for bursts and spikes of usage.
Some people took it upon themselves to try to abuse and saturate the limits to “prove” that we couldn’t handle it.
We could actually handle it, but it wasn’t worth offering it to this small number of users who were trying to prove a point by abusing it to the max without an actual use case. They just wanted to show off on Reddit that the were making our servers suffer.
It might have become socially acceptable to lie when everyone else is, but it is still a lie. Back in my days, you at least had to put an asterisk behind such outrageous claims.
Travel to high trust societies if you don't get what I mean.
Things would be so much easier if we could expect human decency and ethics, even if there is no law against it, because it goes against our values as humans.
It absolutely is a lie, but you might live in a society where constant lying has been normalized. Personally, I believe that society would be better off if companies were held to the letter of their words.
Because that’s not a lie; under special circumstances, it can be true.
For example, consider a restaurant that offers free rice refills because Asian people love eating rice to fill up. An employee working overtime who really needs it can get as many refills as they want.
Of course, this system falls apart if everyone starts doing it, as the restaurant would need to bake that cost into the price to sustain the business.
But my point is: you can have nice things in society, or you can have a dystopia where people take advantage of each other at every single opportunity.
A dystopia is where people lie about free rice bowls to get people in the door but can't deliver. That's not nice things its taking advantage of a lie and blaming people who take up the offer.
Yes because you build it with trust, I trust you to not ruin this things so everyone can enjoy it
I can understand where you coming from because when I watch YT videos about people that exploit the loophole or game the system, people literally praise them for "beating the game" and this is happen mostly with US where everyone is materialistic
but my counter argument is game theory, where everyone can cooperate for betterment of your environment
If there is a limit then it isn't unlimited. That's what the word unlimited means.
Either it is unlimited or it is not. If you call something unlimited then there should not be a limit. You cant abuse it, it's unlimited. There is no limit, so you can never go beyond the limit which means you can never abuse it.
That's what unlimited means. If you mean something else then use a different word.
In my experience the SaaS unlimited abusers often aren’t even trying to do capitalism things. They’re just abusing the systems for the thrill of it.
They go on Reddit and brag and compete about doing useless things to store files on these services, like a competition. They’re bragging on HN about GitHub tools that force files into a non-file service and have rate limiters tuned to upload right at the server’s rate limit.
It’s not capitalism, it’s people thinking they’re winning points against capitalism by abusing a corporation. Even if that corporation is a small startup trying to offer a product on a small budget.
I would say it's the opposite. If there is moral compass and we don't get high-up if someone tries to store their Linux isos on pen pot and gets a ban.
It's a little like "unlimited holidays". If you turn up on day 1 and then say "Right, I'm off on my unlimited holidays! See you never!" and disappeared, they would stop paying you. There is an implicit fair use clause in all unlimited offers - I know a guy who pushed back on "unlimited holidays" because he didn't want to get penalised in performance reviews and it turns out that in his UK-based org it was 29 days a year, or one day more than the legal statutory minimum.
Firms like penpot are basically saying "look, if you pay us this much, we're not going to put hard quotas on you, just get on with it", but if you then try storing backups of annas archive on it, they are probably going to suggest that you are not operating within the spirit of the agreement, even if you're within the letter of it: fair use will apply.
Some people like to know where they stand. They want hard quotas. So fine, ask them for hard quotas. Ask for the fair use clause and understand it.
Most of us know what it means (it's a soft quota with fair use limitations), and are happy with not abusing the tier and having a bit more freedom, though.
Hah. I'm a self employed freelancer, but a friend works for (MegaCorp Intl) and every time we go for beers he mentions that he has "Unlimited Paid Time Off". But whenever I ask if that means he could take a few months to hike the Andes with me, he says.... well, no, actually they'd fire him if he took too much time. How much is too much? I ask. Well basically anything that would make them notice his absence, apparently.
Every company is different. I’ve had the “unlimited time off” company where the CEO would go after anyone who took a week or more.
I’ve also had the unlimited time off company where I took an actual month off and it was fine because I got my work done.
And there's a problem in the other direction too - I don't expect people who really can leave for a few months without their absence being noticable to have much job security.
This is a corporate culture thing. I can be in the middle of nowhere for months, and it makes no difference to my clients. No one even notices. I have a phone that always rings, and laptop. I don't have a corporate health plan or a 401k but I don't have to ask permission..
But if you are still reachable you aren’t on time off… I also work remotely from anywhere; doesn’t mean I’m constantly on vacation
The issue is that if storage is too cheap, people will inevitably mine filecoin on it. Additionally, promising "unlimited storage" and not holding that promise might be a legal liability.
I laughed but also hate the fact that the world needs to worry about "file coin" ruining it for us.
Tbh if it wasn’t crypto it would be something else - people always find a way. Tragedy of the commons or something like that
It likely is as it is not general purpose storage.
Even though your Linux iso's are called "images", they can not be added to a penpot design file - sorry to say.
Can penpot import images? Given enough time, anything that can store PNG will become an automated backup backend
Does it really matter if in real-world-use 99% of the users never hit any limit? And I cannot blame anyone to use "unlimited" instead of "fair use, with reasonably large limits so that you will (probably) never see any restrictions in your use of the product"
HN users want to know if you're allowed to host the whole Internet on it.
Creative people could start encoding terabytes of movies inside of Penpot documents.
This is why we can't have nice things.
People see 'unlimited' and will do everything in their power to 'fact-check' it, forcing the producer to place a 'hard cap' and making everyone's life worse.
Can confirm. Worked at a startup with some very generous (though not “unlimited”) limits designed to allow for bursts and spikes of usage.
Some people took it upon themselves to try to abuse and saturate the limits to “prove” that we couldn’t handle it.
We could actually handle it, but it wasn’t worth offering it to this small number of users who were trying to prove a point by abusing it to the max without an actual use case. They just wanted to show off on Reddit that the were making our servers suffer.
Don’t use the unlimited lie then, I assume.
"starbucks says there is no limit on how many napkins I can use but they got mad when I took the whole container, liars"
It might have become socially acceptable to lie when everyone else is, but it is still a lie. Back in my days, you at least had to put an asterisk behind such outrageous claims.
Heck, adding a word like ‘almost’ would make it rather truth.
It's not a lie if no one is abusing it.
Travel to high trust societies if you don't get what I mean.
Things would be so much easier if we could expect human decency and ethics, even if there is no law against it, because it goes against our values as humans.
> It's not a lie if no one is abusing it.
It absolutely is a lie, but you might live in a society where constant lying has been normalized. Personally, I believe that society would be better off if companies were held to the letter of their words.
Because that’s not a lie; under special circumstances, it can be true.
For example, consider a restaurant that offers free rice refills because Asian people love eating rice to fill up. An employee working overtime who really needs it can get as many refills as they want.
Of course, this system falls apart if everyone starts doing it, as the restaurant would need to bake that cost into the price to sustain the business.
But my point is: you can have nice things in society, or you can have a dystopia where people take advantage of each other at every single opportunity.
The choice is yours.
A dystopia is where people lie about free rice bowls to get people in the door but can't deliver. That's not nice things its taking advantage of a lie and blaming people who take up the offer.
read again, its not lie
its like giving up your seat when there is pregnant woman on the train
if you really need it then its okay, but I know why you don't believe this because its hard to have this policy in US where everyone weight 200 lbs
I understand that, but the phrasing is just wrong. Unlimited is unlimited. Otherwise it’s just doublespeak.
Someone will abuse it though, so why bother with the bullshit
You don't build high trust societies with lies
"You don't build high trust societies with lies"
Yes because you build it with trust, I trust you to not ruin this things so everyone can enjoy it
I can understand where you coming from because when I watch YT videos about people that exploit the loophole or game the system, people literally praise them for "beating the game" and this is happen mostly with US where everyone is materialistic
but my counter argument is game theory, where everyone can cooperate for betterment of your environment
If there is a limit then it isn't unlimited. That's what the word unlimited means.
Either it is unlimited or it is not. If you call something unlimited then there should not be a limit. You cant abuse it, it's unlimited. There is no limit, so you can never go beyond the limit which means you can never abuse it.
That's what unlimited means. If you mean something else then use a different word.
Things would be so much easier if there weren’t a super small minority of extremely greedy rich and powerful people who ruin it for everyone…
Alas we decided collectively that money trumps(sic) everything so low trust society is the natural consequence of this.
At its core it’s a spiritual problem. Capitalism is cool but making it a religion has its trade offs.
In my experience the SaaS unlimited abusers often aren’t even trying to do capitalism things. They’re just abusing the systems for the thrill of it.
They go on Reddit and brag and compete about doing useless things to store files on these services, like a competition. They’re bragging on HN about GitHub tools that force files into a non-file service and have rate limiters tuned to upload right at the server’s rate limit.
It’s not capitalism, it’s people thinking they’re winning points against capitalism by abusing a corporation. Even if that corporation is a small startup trying to offer a product on a small budget.
Perhaps "uncapped" rather than "unlimited" would be a better term for us to start using
I would say it's the opposite. If there is moral compass and we don't get high-up if someone tries to store their Linux isos on pen pot and gets a ban.