> Ultralight culture seems a little nuts to the uninitiated.
I prefer "Durable, but as light as possible", not the other way around. Most ultralight gear breaks after a few uses or when it is mishandled in anything-less-than-perfect conditions, which, happens a lot outside.
My ultralight gear has been sufficiently durable for my backpacking and hiking, even off trail. I'm not hunting or repairing trails but stuff lasts a while. The only exception I've found is inflatable pads which get punctured but no more often than bicycle tire inner tubes and they can similarly be patched with some effort.
What do you use those pads for I wonder?
You put them under your sleeping bag and they make your sleep way warmer than if your sleeping bag is directly on the tent floor.
https://www.nemoequipment.com/collections/sleeping-pads
That the purpose of the sleeping pad is characterized as thermal performance and not comfort is proof that I am not capable of the ultralight mindset.
The tagline for the sleeping pad category is "Find the best backpacking and camping sleeping pads for comfort and support. NEMO sleeping pads are lightweight, packable, and built for your next adventure." Comfort is definitely a concern.
The pads do list their insulation value, but so do non-ultralight sleeping pads.
The reason is that the insulation value is incredibly important to comfort. From experience, a sleeping mat that is thick, but with bad insulation will lead to a way less comfortable night than a thin one with good insulation.
Sleeping bags don't provide much insulation on the bottom because they are compressed under your body (the insulation from a sleeping bag typically comes from air trapped in the fill). Any insulation between you and the cold ground has to come from the sleeping mat. That's why it is important to get one that is cushioned enough for your body as well as being insulated enough.
R values aren't an ultralight camper thing, they are an informed camper thing.
"Something to sleep under, something to sleep on, and something to sleep in. Plus cordage."
Very different philosophy behind this kit (durability and flexibility), but here's a good intro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kin_bjAYk0Q
EDIT: I forgot he also has a more "ultralight" full backpack kit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFj_ULMjcNQ
I spent time in India as a kid sleeping on the hard floor of my grandmother's home. Maybe my sense of comfort is different IDK, but I don't consider a pad essential on a warm night
I am from British Columbia and camping is a very popular activity. Sleeping on a hard floor is not a problem at all. Sure most would probably prefer a mattress and some padding but even with limited gear usually one could at least roll up a t-shirt or a sweater and tuck that under your neck and head and get comfortable on a hard floor.
But unlike India British Columbia is a completely different climate. We can go from very comfortable sunny warm days to very cold nights. The last time I went camping it was May and the days were nice but the night dropped down to like 5c. I have teens and told them all to pack lots of warm clothes, told them it will be cold at night, made them bring extra blankets. But in the end they still did not have enough and in the middle of the night were so cold. So I gave them 2 of my blankets and some of my clothing. This left me absolutely freezing. I had to finally get up at 1am and make a fire. I struggled to warm up and even had to go start my car and put on the heat for a bit. I put a large rock on the fire and got it hot. I put the rock into a cast iron pan I brought and put it onto a couple sticks in my tent so it would not burn the floor. I had to keep that rock close to me all night and I still was cold and miserable.
So yes on a warm night, and we have those here in BC, a pad is not essential at all. But for the other 10 months of the year if you don't have the right gear you will be cold and miserable. Being directly on the ground is like sleeping on a cold water bed (yes I am that old). It feels refreshing at first but then you fall asleep and wake up with your core temperature stolen and cold.
Is any night in the mountains a "warm" night in the same way it is in the populated parts of India?
I often camp in the southwest US, it's pretty dang warm in the summer nights! I don't even sleep inside my sleeping bag on those nights, just lay on top of it
I’m from the US but a “floor sleeper” and have never camped with a pad like these even in near-freezing temperatures. I’m sure it helps but these days I get the impression from people around that they just like gear, don’t like being uncomfortable, and any other benefit is just a bonus to rationalize spending money. Maybe I’ll try it some day and be a convert, until then…
You sleep on a hard surface? That is really difficult for me as a side sleeper. I have slept on hard surfaces out of necessity and my hips and knees are hurting by morning. Do you use a pillow or is your head on the hard surface too?
I started doing it as a kid in order to break my reliance on side sleeping and help general posture. These days I'm less strict but benefit from being able to find a comfortable position anywhere. I'd recommend not resting your head on a pillow but using firm cushioning under your neck; that will very slightly lift and relieve pressure from your head and keep head/neck/shoulders adequately separated. A straw cushion (common in Japan, maybe elsewhere) is nice but a tightly rolled hoodie is almost as good.
Sleeping on a hard surface to avoid side sleeping - noted. Sleeping on my back will lead to snoring which is not appreciated by those around me. I will try the pillow replacement suggestion, though.
What's bad about side sleeping? Just wondering.
Probably more health zeitgeist of the '90s than any real concern. Your bed, body type, and sleep style might make one more appealing than the other.
I was a restless sleeper though and had/have extreme difficulty getting to sleep often; learning to sleep on my back helps. Expressed another way, if my brain says I have to be on my side for comfort, and I have to achieve comfort to sleep, then if that comfort isn't achieved no sleep for me. Getting my brain to accept "and now we lie down for sleep" without thinking about comfort let me be actually comfortable in more positions/settings.
How do you stay warm camping in near freezing conditions? I think pads are more so for insulation to the ground then comfort. Yes they add comfort but a cold ground will suck the heat out of you so fast. How would you describe your typical tent bed time set up?
Setup is just a thin rain mat, tent, sleeping bag, and inside dressed mostly in wool. If traveling with a parka and it's clean/dry, I might wear it inside but suppose it could be laid underneath as a pad. With colder but not sever temperatures coming up I might give that a try and see what difference it makes.
You sleep on the ground in near-freezing temperatures? That's impressive, if true. I find it difficult to sleep if I lack insulation from the ground. An air-mattress isn't enough for me when it's 10-12 degrees celcius outside, provided my 20 yo sleeping bag is not meant for these temperatures.
For my setup my nemo pad + bag is smaller packed volume than an equivalently warm bag without pad. I mostly motocamp so packed volume is at premium. My nemo pad packs down to about the size of a soda can in my saddlebag.
Then you are sleeping on rocks/dirt with just a thin tent fabric. At the very least most people use some closed cell foam.
I have a barrier I made I place under my tent to protect the floor and keep out rain, so there's some additional layers here.
I think a lot of ultralight items are jugdged by measurable properties primarily (which makes the whole subculture very nerd-compatible, I guess). Ofc that doesn't mean you don't care at all for things like comfort.
A solid pad in Ultralight often also doubles in the backpack as a replacement for what would be the frame in traditional backpacks, so it's dual use (or triple, if you consider using it as a sitting mat when taking breaks.
Also, sleeping bags typically compress under your body and lose isolation because of that, so with a pad you can use quilt-style sleeping bags (they wrap around the top and sides but not bottom, which makes them again lighter).
With ultralight activities you're supposed to be so exhausted by bedtime that it isn't necessary to be comfortable to fall asleep.
You can be even more exhausted, if you pack heavier gear.
If you don't have a minimum of comfort you'll have a bad night and wake up exhausted the next day.
Hypothermia helps with exhaustion too.
When you wake up in the middle of the night shivering that's a good incentive to get up and get moving again.
You can get ultralight sleeping pads with a high R-value (thermal performance) that are also comfortable (for me, 10cm+)
They're just marketed by R-value because better insulation will cost more. Many people don't camp in places that would require a high one.
sleeping.
my thermarest pad is a decade+ old and I won't hesitate to take it on a lengthy backpacking trip as long as I have a patch kit, same as a bike tire.
I feel like advances in manufacturing and materials science have really made some massive strides in the past 10 years or so—my sub-2lb 2p tent feels just as durable as my 7lb backpacking tent from the late 90s did.
Jury is still out on my new lightweight tent vs my 34 year old Eureka that still gets used when weight doesn't matter.
My Big Agnes is treated as if it is tissue paper where the Eureka somehow survived containing teens wrestling inside. I hope my BA lasts the rest of my life.
I will agree with the advances in materials, they are amazing - I just think we've made some amount of trade-off in durability.
In my experience, the third main variable here is cost. Light gear can be durable, but that usually costs a lot more because it uses expensive materials like titanium.
Most efficient volume, weight, and durability is valuable in so many ways.
Quite often they end up being used a lot more too.
Also: useful.
Packs used to have MOLLE/PALS strips and/or external pockets. Packs made now seem to have supersonic flight aerodynamics as the primary design feature… heaven forbid we add 20 grams of stitching/webbing for expansion/versatility.
I think people that do long distance hiking are a little nuts but to each their own.
Can confirm there are not many mundanes doing it. It's a bit like how hacker culture used to be before the money.
Thats a bit strongly put.. I’d say a little bit goofy.
People that do long distance hiking happen to like that you think that way.
The max weight is a bunch of bullshit on the ultralight gear.
Last time I moved I showed up the day before my stuff did, I slept on a camp cot I had bought for which I was 90% of the max weight. I used it on a carpeted floor for one night, it bent in two places. If I’d put the damned thing across a root it would have looked like a pretzel the next morning.
I’m not sure I understand the point…
I don’t think many (if any) backpackers are taking a camp cot with them? I imagine most are using an inflatable sleep pad or a foam sleep mat.
It's all of a piece.
The designers forgot that a human is a live load!
"Up to" does seem to be a perfectly distributed load that doesn't ever for instance toss and turn, or sneeze.
Apparently I'm not a spherical cow.