> young men have a crisis of self-selecting bad role models, putting less (or no) effort into their appearance and education, holding gross sociopolitical beliefs, and not developing the emotional and household maturity an adult woman expects.
You're confusing the symptoms for the cause. The question people are asking is what about our society is driving these behaviors. What is making someone like Andrew Tate appealing to a young men? These are young people, why are you blaming them for not knowing better instead asking why they aren't being taught better?
> These are young people, why are you blaming them for not knowing better instead asking why they aren't being taught better?
There's always been an issue with mixed signals when it comes to these topics. Polite society says one thing, but the things you hear from your parents, role models, and jokes between friends are different.
It was true when I was in that age range, and I don't really see what's happening today as an aberration so much as a continuation of trends. The reason things feel materially worse is...because things _are_ materially worse in other aspects of life.
The outlook of young folk in my country is a lot worse than it was in my generation, which was already worse than my parent's generation. On top of that, there's also a sick social media algorithm that rewards controversy and ragebait. I feel like those two things were the ingredients needed to turn the embers of issues I was experiencing first-hand as a teenager into a raging inferno.
>what about our society is driving these behaviors.
It ain't no different how low quality secular governments in the middle east drove a generation of young men to religion 50yr ago, or how the catholic church stifled europe so thoroughly that it created an explosion of various flavors of christian extremists, or when the extractive European colonial empires drove the nations they ruled toward nationalism.
People don't say "f this" and find a new altar to worship at when the current god is serving them well (metaphorically, but sometimes literally). Young men are always the tip of the spear in these transitions because men as a demographic don't put up with shit and the young ones don't have a bunch of accumulated obligations forcing them to.
> What is making someone like Andrew Tate appealing to a young men?
At the heart of what Tate, Kirk, etc. preach is a story that gives an illusion of control. They oppose the popular "your life sucks because an authority figure in a far away place is keeping you down" with "your life sucks because you suck — but you can change". This can be appealing as it offers a (perhaps false) sense of hope.
> why they aren't being taught better?
Teaching requires understanding. But nobody really knows. Virtually everyone agrees that there is a problem; that young people are truly feeling like their lives suck. The contention is really only centred around what the solution is to improve upon it, and people fall into whatever brand best fits their speculation.
Yeah, there is a weird dynamic where blaming yourself for everything can paradoxically make you feel more empowered. (Feel, not be)
If the only obstacle is yourself, there is no limit to the things you could archive if you removed that obstacle and just got your act together. Make a billion dollars? Become the next Jeff Bezos? Get the hottest girls of the planet? Piece of cake, all just a question of Grindset...
I apologize if I came across as blaming them. When I say "self-selecting", I mean to say that it isn't taught by their parents - it's picked up independently or culturally from their developing peer group.
I'm engaging in a bit of reductionism, but from my personal experience this comes after 2-3 decades of targeted marketing that shifted pretty much all concepts related to femininity or polite society into the lens of "gay and weird" for boys. Then, that lever is applied to push the ideas of a return to a (fake) hyper masculine past, and that women (who are "gay and weird") need us (the hyper masculine men) to survive.
When reality and the progressive values of women meet these beliefs, the figure heads use that conflict itself as a lever: "See? Everyone is against you and preventing your happy life."
Then they try to sell them supplements or religion. Or sometimes just a Nazi / crusader Pepe meme.
And the result of this is crushingly sad. I am empathetic, I have personally experienced the pull of this vortex as a child and young man. It's genuinely hard to swim against it's pull because it offers such easy answers.
But these men are less socially capable people, have worse education outcomes, have to overcome gross beliefs and a sense of entitlement that comes along with them; and, of course, the identity crisis of never meeting such expectations. This has rippling effects for society which are equally upsetting.
Anyway, I'd recommended the video series "The Alt Right Pipeline", which also has some good information and resonated with my experience growing up. They're better at explanations than me anyway.
> 2-3 decades of targeted marketing that shifted pretty much all concepts related to femininity or polite society into the lens of "gay and weird" for boys.
This and the another commenter who mentioned the social media algorithms tuned for rage-bait. People get sucked into this deeper and deeper in-group rabbit holes with targeted content suggestions. Its incredibly insidious. While I think this is a major major factor, I still think there is another issue for young men that make them more easily susceptible to falling down these holes in larger numbers than would be the case if things we're going better for them. I think there is an underlying hopelessness there that various actors are exploiting. It is this hopelessness* that is the true cause of this problem.
* Maybe that's not the right word. Alienation? Looking forward and seeing only barriers? I don't know.
Oh, for sure! Economic turmoil absolutely contributed to all of this.
Yea, when it comes to the alt-right / manosphere stuff, I don't think there's a lot of self-selection going on. The social media algorithms are largely steering boys and young men down these paths. Log out and get a fresh IP (or VPN), and take a random walk on YouTube to see for yourself. Within 10 clicks or so on recommendations, you're likely to start seeing one or two alt-right videos, and once you click on one, you're done for--90% of your recommendations will be things like "Become Alpha Male by increasing Testosterone" "Arguing with women and liberals using facts and logic!" and "Mussolini wasn't that bad!"
I can 100% agree with this. I’m a pretty liberal person (my father says a little left of Lenin), but I did grow up in the south shooting guns with family, and am still interested in firearms and related information. It’s so hard to get youtube and other things to actually believe that I’m liberal because “guns”.
Moreover... Most young people are indoctrinated extensively in the female-centric view of society deemed acceptable by polite society. When following that program causes them a great deal of misery with the opposite sex, it is natural for them to feel betrayed and to seek a viewpoint from outside. The fact that the mainstream hates Andrew Tate has the perverse effect of making him more credible to the victims of mainstream brainwashing, regardless of the fact that he pushes a bunch of cringe stuff along with some reasonable takes. I think most people who like Tate probably recognize that it's a mixed bag. But they will put up with the nonsense just to hear some kind of pep talk that meshes with their life experiences.
> Most young people are indoctrinated extensively in the female-centric view of society deemed acceptable by polite society.
Which is what exactly?
To be frank, I wouldn't like to be an American young man nowadays, nor would I like to be an American young woman.
Everytime this kind of debate pops up on the internet, you seem to see two very vocal camps, one pushing the most absurd reactionary non sense about what men should be openly exposing the grossest misoginy I have ever had the displeasure to read and the other one barely containing its deep seated misandry. People really like to reduce this topic to a for them or against them position preferably erasing any kind of complexity in the process.
I feel like normal people have exited the discussion on this topic a long time ago and the young who live most of their social life on the internet nowadays are just exposed to what remains.
You mention America but this is an international cultural issue. The US is not even the worst country as far as gender relations goes.
>People really like to reduce this topic to a for them or against them position preferably erasing any kind of complexity in the process.
I think you want to shrug this off as some kind of "both sides" situation while ignoring the simple and irrefutable facts on the ground.
>I feel like normal people have exited the discussion on this topic a long time ago and the young who live most of their social life on the internet nowadays are just exposed to what remains.
Do you know many young or old people who are unaware of what goes online these days? Is misandry coming out of your TV, popular books, or magazines more acceptable than misogyny on some website or video online? I have met countless women poisoned against me personally without even knowing me. If you try to talk about men's issues, most women just don't want to hear it. They've been taught for decades that men are keeping them down, they deserve everything they want, etc.
> You mention America but this is an international cultural issue. The US is not even the worst country as far as gender relations goes.
No, it's not.
Thankfully, my country has been sparred pretty much all the discussion about transgender and bathroom and most of the religious reactionary non sense. It's very much a problem of the USA and by extension countries which consume media in English like the UK.
> I think you want to shrug this off as some kind of "both sides" situation while ignoring the simple and irrefutable facts on the ground.
Which are? You are turning the discussion into a for or against irrefutable facts by the way. Thank you for nicely illustrating my point.
>No, it's not.
South Korea, Japan, and even Russia would like to have a word with you.
>Thankfully, my country has been sparred pretty much all the discussion about transgender and bathroom and most of the religious reactionary non sense. It's very much a problem of the USA and by extension countries which consume media in English like the UK.
The bathroom and pronoun stuff is definitely originating in the anglosphere. But this is being pushed out to all corners of the world. If you managed to avoid it, be thankful and continue to live in your bubble and don't lecture me about it. By the way, resistance to this garbage is not "religious" in general. Even atheists hate the propaganda and woke moralizing.
>Which are? You are turning the discussion into a for or against irrefutable facts by the way. Thank you for nicely illustrating my point.
I don't have time to write a dissertation on this topic. But the facts I refer to are the ones that everyone has to deal with in their daily lives. You can try to tell me it's this way or that way but you're a foreigner telling me my experience of decades is actually just the imagination of a terminally online weirdo. Tell it to someone less committed to trusting their eyes and ears.
> South Korea, Japan, and even Russia would like to have a word with you.
If you think anything happening in Russia is somehow linked to the discussion in the USA, I can’t do anything for you.
> By the way, resistance to this garbage is not "religious" in general.
Who said anything about resistance? I’m just listing two nauseous things the US currently exports.