I’m an ultra lib, despise Elon, hope he faces a jury of peers to answer for all he has done, but this seems like learned behavior. My toddler son thinks they look really good (wife and I think they look atrocious and our anti-Elon bias doesn’t help).
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Also cut essential foreign aid, likely to result in thousands extra deaths, fired essential government workers for no reason that then had to be hired back at extra expense, while asking others to send him an email justifying their employment, accessed government records of citizens he should have no visibility into, likely misusing them, made up claims about 200+ year olds receiving pensions, made Grok available to assist in committing war crimes in Iran and Latin America, not to speak of Grok 'undressing' random people on the internet, spent millions on election interference etc. etc.
Otherwise you're of course right.
> Also cut essential foreign aid...
Why are my tax dollars going to foreign healthcare, education, and food banks when we could definitely use that here?
> claims about 200+ year olds recieving pensions Elon and a SSA inspector general investigation identified approximately $298 million paid to 24,000 deceased beneficiaries over a period spanning 1998–2019. Some of that money was recovered.
He did nothing. He was an advisor to the president, and his team made reccomendations. Also, there is a GAO that has reviewed all canceled contracts. All of the recipients had the right to protest... unfortunately, most of the NGO's simply had to show up to court to get the contracts back, but they didn't because it was obvious fraud.
And, that grok part? What is all that about? Any AI, can do all of those things? Spending on election interference? So all money donated to political orgs are election interference?
The reasons you seem to hate him, all seem like good things to me?
> Why are my tax dollars going to foreign healthcare, education, and food banks
Because the US wants to have influence around the world to maintain its empire. Mostly using hard power but also some soft power and this is seen as a relatively cheap way to maintain NGO presence in foreign countries that can be used for both.
> when we could definitely use that here?
Agreed, unfortunately that gets called socialism/communism in the US, which means a large chunk of the population will instantly reject it based on labels alone.
> He did nothing. He was an advisor to the president, and his team made reccomendations.
His team did a lot more than that[1][2][3].
"DOGE has gained access to sensitive data about immigrants and farm workers. [A] whistleblower at the National Labor Relations Board claims that staffers observed spikes in data leaving the agency after DOGE got access to its systems, with destinations unknown."
> And, that grok part? What is all that about? Any AI, can do all of those things?
There's a difference between potentially can do and is basically advertised as doing[4]. You can't easily get Claude to do the equivalent, for example. Note that what Grok did was not limited to adults either. But maybe you're fine with that too. Do you think a regular person would get away with that?
1 - https://www.wired.com/story/doge-is-just-getting-warmed-up-d...
2 - https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/20...
3 - https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/22/us/politics/elon-musk-ema...
4 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok_sexual_deepfake_scandal
For what it's worth, I don't hate Musk specifically. What I hate is this sense that people with his wealth have that they are entitled to just disregard all rules they don't like because they're just so brilliant. Then you have people in jail for things Musk does 8 times a day.
If all he did was put his money towards some cool projects, (which is what I think his admirers think he limits himself to), then be my guest. It's the idea that he can get high as a kite, have some crackpot idea based off of a X post he just saw, pick up the phone and get a crackpot plan in motion, bypassing any kind of normal process or vetting.
I'd be seriously worried that Musk has all kinds of private info on regular Americans as a result of his DOGE scheme, which likely did the opposite of saving money[5][6].
5 - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/doge-cuts-cost-135-billion-anal...
6 - https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/white-house-begs-hundred...
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> Why are my tax dollars going to foreign healthcare, education, and food banks when we could definitely use that here?
I somewhat agree. You vote for universal healthcare, or against it?
Either way, addressing communicable diseases in far away places also helps keep them from becoming nearby diseases. It's far cheaper to fund some vaccines in a far away land than deal with widespread disease domestically. And in the end, cutting these things did practically nothing for the deficit. It was a rounding error of spending to save so many lives around the world.
And they want to argue they're instituting a "Christian" nation. How about following His red text words?
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
>universal healthcare
I'm 31, i was too young to vote last time the US tried to pass universal healthcare (Obamacare.) However, I don't like government if you can't tell. So no, i would not vote for universal healthcare. Our system has it's flaws, but it seems to be the best system i've witnessed. Medical debt can't effect your credit score, and they can't garnish you wages to pay it off... so technically it is free? I think what really needs to be done is we need to "decertify" doctors. There's no reason I need someone who went to school for 16 years when i break an arm or feel sick and want some over the counter drugs.
As for the aid thing:
"If the industrial nations really want to help the Africans, they should finally terminate this awful aid.”
Western governments sending enormous quantities of subsidized agricultural products into Africa, harms them more than it helps them. Kenyan Economists took note of when food aid arrived in Kenya, some was diverted by corrupt officials, while other shipments were sold on local markets at extremely low prices. Kenyan farmers couldn't compete with these prices, so their businesses suffered. As local agricultural production declined, the country became increasingly dependent on outside assistance. During the next drought, Kenya would have fewer domestic food reserves, creating another cycle of dependency and killing thousands.
> but it seems to be the best system i've witnessed
How many systems have you actually witnessed firsthand? Have you spent life uninsured with medical issues before? Have you ever actually had significant medical debt?
> Medical debt can't effect your credit score, and they can't garnish you wages to pay it off
This isn't true across most of the country. It really makes me question your idea "the best system i've witnessed", as you're repeating commonly held beliefs which are not based on reality.
https://www.moneylion.com/learn/debt/medical-debt/can-medica...
This then only really applies for emergency healthcare, and even then only really to stabilize you enough to send you out the door. Sure seems like the worst way to administer kinda-sorta-not-really-free healthcare. Wouldn't it be better to just provide solutions to remediate and manage issues before they end up in the most expensive form of healthcare, probably over and over?
> There's no reason I need someone who went to school for 16 years when i break an arm or feel sick and want some over the counter drugs.
This is already a thing and is rapidly growing. Urgent care centers largely staff NP/PAs, which can write prescriptions. Its becoming more common for these providers to have many shifts with only NP/PAs as the highest clinical position instead of having an MD/DO as well. PA's didn't go to school for 16 years.
That said, if I break my arm I'm definitely going to want to go to an ortho if I've had even a slightly significant break. Not healing right will mess you up for life.
Once again, are you sure you understand this system you're claiming is the "best system"? If you don't even begin to understand the basics of the claims you're making, how are you so confident this system is the best? Random internet memes tell you it is so? Yeah, sure, you're more likely to survive some uber rare cancer. You're more likely to die in child birth or due to some random disease, all while spending more to subsidize some billionaires yacht habits.
> sending enormous quantities of subsidized agricultural products into Africa
I can get behind winding down enormous amounts of food aid when there aren't active famines happening. If we're really wanting to help, it would be far better to give aid to help jump start their own food production, enable them to be self-sufficient instead of the corporate farm welfare we had. Defined road maps to taper aid when good infrastructure is in place and well supported would be important.
Its still not exactly wise policy to suddenly one day completely cut it all off. Its also not the only thing that was suddenly slashed. Tons of people reliant on medications to live were suddenly cut off without any possible supplier in the area, among many other things.
You're then also so worried about how expensive these programs were. Its like worrying about how much crushing debt you're in financing luxury cars so you decide to cut back on buying a candy bar every other week. Problem solved guys! We did it! Good job! Applause all around! Just ignore how we've actually increased spending after all these rounds of government efficiency cuts!
Sure seems like the last time we had someone focusing on getting in and cutting wasteful budgets, focusing on actually getting consensus on what was wasteful, we actually managed to have a budget surplus. Who was that guy again? Which party was that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Partnership_for_Reinv...
Maybe Musk should have learned from history instead of assuming he knows everything already. Maybe he would have actually been successful.
I mean, surely you know already the responses to these?
1. Elon didn't "create jobs," he profited off other's labor by having his name on some pieces of paper. Furthermore it's often reported that rather than an innovative force in a company, usually people have to work hard to keep him as uninvolved as possible, because he's mostly incompetent.
2. He's the richest man in the world. I don't care the volume of tax he paid, I care what percentage of his spending power it is, because that's how my taxes and my neighbor's taxes are calculated, and it's only fair his should be as well. By that measure, he pays functionally no taxes. My taxes impact my purchasing power and I have to budget for it. His should as well. After all, his money only has value because of the existence of this government.
3. SpaceX sucks the air out of the room the same way his fake drill company killed California HSR. Stop letting crony capitalists suck government contracts dry and then have their buddies sell the "more efficient private solution" that also doesn't get delivered. It's frankly absurd to not nationalize something as critical to sovereignty as a space program.
>Elon didn't "create jobs," he profited off other's labor by having his name on some pieces of paper. Furthermore it's often reported that rather than an innovative force in a company, usually people have to work hard to keep him as uninvolved as possible, because he's mostly incompetent.
I worked at Tesla for two years on the capital expenditure team... He literally goes around the factory making hundreds of changes. Sometimes those changes are bad, and are reverted but in my experience, he's right 95% of the time, and the other 5% he'll revert when shown evidence of why it's a bad idea. I'm sure he does the same thing at SpaceX. He is literally the HEAD ENGINEER. He approves the factory layouts, he is responsible for tak time personally, he is constantly on the factory floor.
>"Furthermore it's often reported that rather than an innovative force in a company, usually people have to work hard to keep him as uninvolved as possible, because he's mostly incompetent."
WTF are you talking about? Who could possible keep him from being uninvoled? he is on the factory floor bi weekly making adjustments and negotiating equipment delivery. No one has the power to try and "Keep him uninvoled" and if so, they would be quickly fired.
>It's frankly absurd to not nationalize something as critical to sovereignty as a space program.
Uhh... we tried that. it'd called NASA, and it's been behind the soviet union since the early 2000's.
What happens when you nationalize it? You realise you can't force people to innovate, right? Do you think Gavin Newsom will be a better CEO of SpaceX? Do you think we have any chance of reaching mars after nationaliztion?
Why do you feel the right to be able to take what someone else has built?
Damage control at SpaceX https://www.theinformation.com/articles/elon-musks-no-2-at-s...
Damage control at Tesla https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-tesla-life-inside-giga...
Twitter finally distracting him away from his meddling https://www.yahoo.com/news/spacex-employees-relieved-elon-mu...
> Uhh... we tried that. it'd called NASA, and it's been behind the soviet union since the early 2000's.
Fascinating. You know what, actually, this part of the conversation is far more interesting to me. I concede that Musk is a super genius that definitely didn't do a Nazi salute on live television. I'd rather explore this with you.
So, you said it right there... NASA, which functioned as a government sponsored project manager distributing out contracts to businesses from a government budget... Failed to keep up with the Soviet Union space program, which was, well you know the answer! Fully nationalized.
I'm not surprised that American half measures at nationalization fail, just like I'm not surprised that the HSR failed through crony capitalism. There in the name. I'm arguing for something a little more dramatic than NASA. Something provably effective. Speaking of HSR, I'm reminded of another modern nationalized infrastructure project that is unparalleled in scale or success, somewhere in the East ;)
> Why do you feel the right to be able to take what someone else has built?
Musk's money has value only because of the society we all together create. It's silly to draw some lines around and say "actually the country's national space program should move to the whims of this one guy that signed investment paperwork and occasionally yells at people on a factory floor." A deeply unserious way of managing something critical to national sovereignty. The Soviets understood this which is why they got to space first. The Americans could only come close when they got a little commie about it; they surpassed the Soviets only when they centralized even more than the Soviets did, which is why Ayn Rand got upset enough to write about it: https://courses.aynrand.org/works/apollo-11/
I don't know if we are talking past eachother, or you are proving my points here? NASA would be nowhere without spaceX. In a centralized system, they never would have developed reusability, because economics are not a consideration. And when you try and produce an end good where economics are not part of the consideration, even with success, you achieve failure.
If SpaceX was nationalized, Starship development would of never happened. Catching the boosters with giant chopsticks, would have never happened. We would probably spend $100B to get to a human to mars and we'd say "Done". However, keeping a profit incentive ensure proper allocation of resources and goals with economic fucundity instead of dumping 60 years to build a death trap with no meaningful payload capacity to the moon. SpaceX has only 20 years, and has rapidly advanced past any agency or company on the planet. SpaceX has the capacity and access that Governments wish they could create, but inside a government system the incintives can never exist to create those in the first place.
edit: Those three links you provided... The last one, a "Calmer work enviroment" because His [Elons] demands have sometimes led to staff reworking the product again for its functionality."
Don't you think these articles kinda of disprove your original statement that he's not intimately involved in the design details? Yes, definitely Elon is not known to be subtle with his employees and he definitely yells alot I can tell you that from first hand experience. Shotwell is definitely the more level headed of the two, with a much higher EQ, so of course, when Elon comes in and fires the entire Starlink team, comes in and redesigns it from scratch, she picks up the pieces of those in his way. At Tesla, however, there is no equivelent to shotwell.
> In a centralized system, they never would have developed reusability, because economics are not a consideration. And when you try and produce an end good where economics are not part of the consideration, even with success, you achieve failure.
You'd need evidence for this claim, because it's evidently false given the nationalized space program of the soviet union and the nationalized HSR program of the PRC both had cost optimizations built in. Also, the Soviet Union's wasn't entirely centralized, different design departments competed.
> they never would have developed reusability,
Space shuttle.
> However, keeping a profit incentive ensure proper allocation of resources and goals with economic fucundity
What's the profit incentive of a nuclear weapons program? Access to space is an assurance of sovereignty. There's no room for inefficient resource allocation mechanisms like profit incentive. See: Ukraine losing starlink internet because it made Elon mad somehow. In Taiwan we saw the writing on the wall for this when the digital minister briefly flirted with Starlink, which is why seeking a private option for non-submarine cable internet was abandoned in favor of investigating a nationalized one.
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https://apnews.com/article/elon-musk-wisconsin-election-mill...
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Don't worry, there's plenty to choose from. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawsuits_involving_the_Departm...
What specific crime(s) do you believe were committed?
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His efforts with DOGE should be further investigated for corruption. Musk might have had a "mandate", laughable as it is, from the Executive, but sure was mighty convenient how many programs that had stood in the way of his companies got the axe, and how much data ended up in places it shouldn't.