America does a better job at assimilating immigrants than most of the rest of the world. It’s just a very hard problem, and the US does more of it than anyone.
People facing racial discrimination can and have overcome it, throughout our history.
People hold out willing non-white immigrants succeeding as proof there is no significant racial discrimination. But this ignores a large selection bias. People who voluntarily immigrate almost always have a great deal of drive and often some resources. Most of them would have been more successful then average if they had stayed in their home country.
I definitely wouldn't say my lineage had any call in "immigrating" into the US.
And yes, don't underestimate how such maneuvers are very indirect means of white flight. African Americans could only (legally) own a home in much of the US for 50 years. At the very best, that is 2 generations of wealth to accrue, which puts that demographic a good century behind what potentially could have been economically.
50 years would be 1976. Perhaps you're confusing it with the myth about women being legally prohibited from opening bank accounts. (1972 was when sex discrimination by businesses was outlawed at the Federal level, though there was never a law that prohibited a women from having a bank account, not directly, and not indirectly since the 1800s. Some banks discriminated against married women, but unless they lived in a one-bank town there were others that were happy to have their business.)
So 58/59 years if we want an exact date. But a law passed de jure doesn't mean everyone throws their hands up and willingly complies, so the sand will still be shakey for a good decade.
Of course, YMMV per state, so it's not like the Midwest or west coast had the same level of discrimination as the deep south. But that's the line that this policy became federal.
Okay, but like with the banking myth there was no law or official government policy that specifically prohibited black ownership. And the only legally enforceable impediment after the 14th Amendment were racial covenants on private property (drawn up by property owners themselves by private agreement), which became void in 1948 after SCOTUS said it was unconstitutional for courts to enforce racial covenants.
Notwithstanding that they were examples of extra-legal discrimination (in the sense of not being direct legal prohibitions), racial covenants and red lining also didn't just effect black Americans, though nationwide they were disproportionately impacted. I only point that out because most people would say it was incongruous to claim Jews or Polish or Asians were legally prohibited from owning land in many areas.
I think it's an important distinction because there are vestiges of redlining that persist today. First time homeowner mortgage subsidies, the first major stepping stone for building wealth for most people, effectively exclude many kinds of multiunit housing, such as condos and, IIRC until recently, attached housing like duplexes. This disproportionately impacts prospective urban black homeowners, and quite deliberately. Likewise, IIUC prefabbed homes or similar are excluded, which disproportionately impacts poor rural whites and blacks alike. There are legitimate concerns behind those restrictions, such as developer and rental fraud, just as nominally there were legitimate concerns behind redlining, namely sustainability of property valuations. Though in all these cases it's obvious the reason they persist(ed) as-is is for largely discriminatory reasons, as the legitimate substance of the concerns could be addressed. At the same time, we wouldn't say they legally prohibit ownership; if you're wealthy enough they're no impediment at all, just like redlining and covenants were no impediment if you were wealthy enough (racial covenants could be overcome by just buying up all the adjacent property so there was no other property owner to enforce the covenant; the government couldn't by itself enforce such covenants, only adjoining property owner "beneficiaries").
Perhaps counterintuitively, black letter property law was one of the legal areas most resilient to both racial and sex discrimination. The 1800s saw some regression, but that didn't last long, often because courts themselves couldn't tolerate the illogic. People criticize it, but property is indeed sacrosanct to American legal and political culture, and it was very difficult to carve out exceptions that permitted blacks and women to be excluded without threatening the underlying principles of the system that secured owners' rights. That's why prejudiced treatment tended to come in the form of private, regulatory, or extra-legal discrimination, which arguably persists today in the form of restrictive zoning and related development policies which not coincidentally are impediments to free & clear property ownership, just enough to be tolerable to the well-off while disproportionately impacting the real targets.
I don't know why you got downvoted. If you don't believe this, read "Dying of Whiteness" by Jonathan Metzl. Something like 30% of this country will reject quality of life improvements for themselves if they see that it will also benefit people of other races who "don't deserve it".
The entire social structure of the south was (and mostly still is) based on wealthy whites convincing poor whites to accept the situation because blacks are even worse off.
You shouldn't have to believe, because the various poor white guys who died for the south wrote plenty about how their driving motivation was that a black guy having the same social status as them was worse than death.
They literally wanted to kill northerners for daring to make them equal to black people.
Then really shouldn't it be "everything is about money"? After all, it's clear that the actual lie is convincing a big group of people that they don't share a common cause. Racism has many causes, but using it as a divide and conquer tactic has to be one of the most disgusting ones.
Judging by the color of one's skins is one of the easiest and oldest ways to discriminate. Only behind by the contents of one's genetalia. But the latter at least has a biological need to care for one another.
It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation. At least when someone looks at someone who "looks like them" but is poorer, they see "potential" (there's a name for this effect, but I forget). But the end goal is getting theirs first and foremost.
True, but this effect tends to diminish at the highest levels of wealth.
At lower levels you have the “labor aristocracy” effect, which gives the more well-off workers a material stake in racism. And this division is useful to prevent organization.
> the end goal is getting theirs first and foremost
Its also about language and colloquialisms. If you grow up poor, but go to a school with many wealthy children, you will learn to speak the "language" of the wealthy, which is, in my opinion, what mostly explains the "having potential" that the ruling class will see in your as you enter adulthood.
America does a better job at assimilating immigrants than most of the rest of the world. It’s just a very hard problem, and the US does more of it than anyone.
Not everyone in this country who isn't white has ancestry from an immigrant (or at least not a willing one).
Also, non white immigrants face discrimination.
People facing racial discrimination can and have overcome it, throughout our history.
People hold out willing non-white immigrants succeeding as proof there is no significant racial discrimination. But this ignores a large selection bias. People who voluntarily immigrate almost always have a great deal of drive and often some resources. Most of them would have been more successful then average if they had stayed in their home country.
I definitely wouldn't say my lineage had any call in "immigrating" into the US.
And yes, don't underestimate how such maneuvers are very indirect means of white flight. African Americans could only (legally) own a home in much of the US for 50 years. At the very best, that is 2 generations of wealth to accrue, which puts that demographic a good century behind what potentially could have been economically.
50 years would be 1976. Perhaps you're confusing it with the myth about women being legally prohibited from opening bank accounts. (1972 was when sex discrimination by businesses was outlawed at the Federal level, though there was never a law that prohibited a women from having a bank account, not directly, and not indirectly since the 1800s. Some banks discriminated against married women, but unless they lived in a one-bank town there were others that were happy to have their business.)
My timeline was loose, but I was specifically talking about the Fair Housing act of 1968: https://www.justice.gov/crt/fair-housing-act-1
So 58/59 years if we want an exact date. But a law passed de jure doesn't mean everyone throws their hands up and willingly complies, so the sand will still be shakey for a good decade.
Of course, YMMV per state, so it's not like the Midwest or west coast had the same level of discrimination as the deep south. But that's the line that this policy became federal.
Okay, but like with the banking myth there was no law or official government policy that specifically prohibited black ownership. And the only legally enforceable impediment after the 14th Amendment were racial covenants on private property (drawn up by property owners themselves by private agreement), which became void in 1948 after SCOTUS said it was unconstitutional for courts to enforce racial covenants.
Notwithstanding that they were examples of extra-legal discrimination (in the sense of not being direct legal prohibitions), racial covenants and red lining also didn't just effect black Americans, though nationwide they were disproportionately impacted. I only point that out because most people would say it was incongruous to claim Jews or Polish or Asians were legally prohibited from owning land in many areas.
I think it's an important distinction because there are vestiges of redlining that persist today. First time homeowner mortgage subsidies, the first major stepping stone for building wealth for most people, effectively exclude many kinds of multiunit housing, such as condos and, IIRC until recently, attached housing like duplexes. This disproportionately impacts prospective urban black homeowners, and quite deliberately. Likewise, IIUC prefabbed homes or similar are excluded, which disproportionately impacts poor rural whites and blacks alike. There are legitimate concerns behind those restrictions, such as developer and rental fraud, just as nominally there were legitimate concerns behind redlining, namely sustainability of property valuations. Though in all these cases it's obvious the reason they persist(ed) as-is is for largely discriminatory reasons, as the legitimate substance of the concerns could be addressed. At the same time, we wouldn't say they legally prohibit ownership; if you're wealthy enough they're no impediment at all, just like redlining and covenants were no impediment if you were wealthy enough (racial covenants could be overcome by just buying up all the adjacent property so there was no other property owner to enforce the covenant; the government couldn't by itself enforce such covenants, only adjoining property owner "beneficiaries").
Perhaps counterintuitively, black letter property law was one of the legal areas most resilient to both racial and sex discrimination. The 1800s saw some regression, but that didn't last long, often because courts themselves couldn't tolerate the illogic. People criticize it, but property is indeed sacrosanct to American legal and political culture, and it was very difficult to carve out exceptions that permitted blacks and women to be excluded without threatening the underlying principles of the system that secured owners' rights. That's why prejudiced treatment tended to come in the form of private, regulatory, or extra-legal discrimination, which arguably persists today in the form of restrictive zoning and related development policies which not coincidentally are impediments to free & clear property ownership, just enough to be tolerable to the well-off while disproportionately impacting the real targets.
This kind of thinking is how you get trump 3.0 after you blame and alienate people who want their lives to improve.
I don't know why you got downvoted. If you don't believe this, read "Dying of Whiteness" by Jonathan Metzl. Something like 30% of this country will reject quality of life improvements for themselves if they see that it will also benefit people of other races who "don't deserve it".
The entire social structure of the south was (and mostly still is) based on wealthy whites convincing poor whites to accept the situation because blacks are even worse off.
And those that haven’t lived in the south can’t comprehend that it really is the core animating belief behind the entire apparatus of government.
You shouldn't have to believe, because the various poor white guys who died for the south wrote plenty about how their driving motivation was that a black guy having the same social status as them was worse than death.
They literally wanted to kill northerners for daring to make them equal to black people.
Still do.
Then really shouldn't it be "everything is about money"? After all, it's clear that the actual lie is convincing a big group of people that they don't share a common cause. Racism has many causes, but using it as a divide and conquer tactic has to be one of the most disgusting ones.
It’s super easy to get whatever survey results you want by careful tweaking of wording.
Not to mention how often people misinterpret a survey and add their own bias to the results.
*Everything in America is about class, with race as a frequent proxy for class
Fixed that for you
Judging by the color of one's skins is one of the easiest and oldest ways to discriminate. Only behind by the contents of one's genetalia. But the latter at least has a biological need to care for one another.
It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation. At least when someone looks at someone who "looks like them" but is poorer, they see "potential" (there's a name for this effect, but I forget). But the end goal is getting theirs first and foremost.
True, but this effect tends to diminish at the highest levels of wealth.
At lower levels you have the “labor aristocracy” effect, which gives the more well-off workers a material stake in racism. And this division is useful to prevent organization.
> the end goal is getting theirs first and foremost
Seconded
Its also about language and colloquialisms. If you grow up poor, but go to a school with many wealthy children, you will learn to speak the "language" of the wealthy, which is, in my opinion, what mostly explains the "having potential" that the ruling class will see in your as you enter adulthood.