Don't these sort of conflict with being "aggressively pro AI"?

> how awful everything is to read lately > flooded with AI generated content, all of it terrible > everything sounding identical and everything being a rambling unconcise mess.

I can see the benefits of AI and enjoy using the technology - but, like many have said, it's wreaking havoc on the "content" that's out there nowadays. Gotta take some bad with the good, I suppose.

> Gotta take some bad with the good, I suppose.

Well, it's quite simple if you think about it. Intelligence is all about awareness of the imminence of death and the finite amount of time given to any of us. So, we humans intrinsically evolved to make the most of it. The majority of the tools we create have the ultimate purpose - to save time. Even money is nothing but a way to cut some time. It's not really about time but experiences - we want to have as many and as rich as we can get, and we innately try to cut time somewhere else, so we can use what we saved for better experiences.

Therefore, inventing cars was an easily predictable event. There's not a single hypothetical timeline or dimension where humans don't end up with cars - to transport things and to travel faster. Similarly, it was always simply inevitable - we would have invented something like LLMs, sooner or later.

Cars required significant sacrifices - they are absolutely deadly machines, they kill thousands of people every single day, kill wildlife, endager our own existence, and we're kind of okay with that. I can absolutely assure you, if someone tomorrow invents a gravitational jump travel that allows moving things between continents in minutes, even with a success rate as low as 10%, we would still be using it.

So, yes. We can't un-invent cars and AI, the only way to move forward is to adjust to this new reality and extract the best possible experiences, preferably by not robbing other people of their - i.e., enjoy life while it lasts, it still remains finite.

> Intelligence is all about awareness of the imminence of death and the finite amount of time given to any of us.

You lost me there. Children are pretty intelligent and have no concept of time. I don't see the relation you find obvious and the rest of your points similarly don't follow.

> Therefore, inventing cars was an easily predictable event.

This feels like a benefit of hindsight unless you can call out other obvious and imminent (but not yet existing) inventions.

Yeah, I guess, "intelligence is all about awareness of death" is kind of a bomb of a premise. I admit, not the best thought I spat out through my keyboard. I suppose I mean some narrower sense of intelligence here. On one hand, you're absolutely right - crows, octopuses and toddlers solve problems without any hint of understanding mortality. Yet "children have no concept of time" is incorrect: not only do they have one, but most kids also grasp that death is irreversible and happens to everyone by about age 5-7.

I don't blame you for immediately rejecting the rest of it. But do hear me out: the point about the inevitability of invention does have real support. Historians call it multiple discovery - tons of things have been invented independently - calculus, the telephone, the jet engine, to name a few.

Neural nets, GPUs, and the scale of Internet text made something like LLMs close to inevitable. Of course, we could debate forever whether any of these on its own was ever inevitable. The point is - society tolerates any cost of a useful invention for the benefit of saving time. So it's reasonable to assume this will be the case with AI as well, which is really happening as we speak.

I'm kind of pro AI while also being pro LESS AI.

These are ultimately all software systems where updates can be pushed out with the press of a button. We just found an amazing new tool in the LLM and people are trying out all kinds of ways of using it, many of them dumb or stupid, this is discovery that has to be done, we'll keep doing it and pushing updates.

It doesn't take rose colored glasses really to infer that over time we'll cull the dumbest uses and extrapolate on the best ones. There's a huge difference between using a generic chatbot, even one driven by a SOTA model, vs targeting a specific business task with good guardrails, skills, and tool interfaces that call out to real business logic when the model isn't the right thing. The latter will emerge more and more over time.

You can be pro-"thinking AI is going to get really good and solve many problems" (i.e. be the sort of person who would "go long" on AI), while also being anti-"applying AI right now to domains outside of the few it's been specifically optimized for [e.g. coding]" (because in these other domains, AI is yet to approach, let alone surpass, "authentic quality" equivalent to that of a skilled junior professional.)

Only a programmer or a business guy would think just because it becomes capable we would want to see AI produce "content". The effect is the erasure of human culture.

This is somewhat of a dramatic statement. What, exactly, is the mechanism by which human culture is erased because LLMs write some stories or compose some music?

The flood of LLM-produced stories and music. Spam killed email.

I think there could be room for something like how holodeck programs are shown to be authored in Star Trek, i.e.: the author does all the primary work, and then the system, if a particular work's design allows it, extrapolates from that to fill in the blanks when somebody decides to make Moriarty super-intelligent or put a hundred androids in a Wild West scenario or take part in a go-karting death race with Frankenstein's monster.

But, that comes with with the same kind of cultural acknowledgement, as seen with the characters in Star Trek, that such algorithmically generated material is an experimental diversion, and inherently not worth the same respect or focus as experiencing something authored with intentionality by a person.

I can like the concept of the engine, and the leverage it provides, but I hate traffic and get anxious about having an accident on the freeway. And the people behind the industrial revolution have destroyed the climate.

I love computers and the internet, and the internet has ruined a lot of people and things around me.

It's possible to be interested in a new technology and enjoy its leverage while still being extremely apprehensive about how it intersects with game theory and politics. The race to the bottom of the barrel keeps coming for the jugular of every cool new thing.

Well, we have a good understanding of the benefits that the industrial revolution and the computing revolution have given us.

The AI situation is different. The technology is obviously extraordinarily powerful but the benefits to humanity are still nebulous and there are many very obvious harms like the one we're discussing. So to describe yourself as "aggressively pro AI" you must believe that future, as-yet unrealized benefits will outweigh the harms. I don't think that's a crazy thing to believe but it deserves scrutiny and demands elaboration.

> it deserves scrutiny and demands elaboration.

These challenges never go anywhere because it’s essentially a religious conviction. We’re likely in sort of uncharted territory on a macro scale and I reckon people a) either acknowledge that or refuse, and b), either trust or distrust the tech world’s stewardship of this technology. There’s a hundred bazillion data points, and I’m pretty pessimistic about the tech scene at large right now, but I think reasonable people can disagree on this without being factually or logically wrong. But true zealots in the midst of such uncertainty are driven by faith, which can certainly be deftly swayed over time, but definitely can’t be conquered in a debate.

Eh, I think many of the harms of AI are currently also nebulous. It's not as though the harms are all concrete and massive and the benefits are vague and "in the future"

I’ve been starting to think that a lot of the variance in how people see the world can be explained by whether their attention is drawn to first-order localized effects, or nth-order distributed effects. This is not the same thing as optimism vs. pessimism, but it sure is correlated!

This sounds intriguing. Can you expand on what your thinking is or link to somewhere I could read more?

Or just short term gains versus long term pains (or vice versa, depending on how you view it)

I feel like in my life all I ever see is people mortgaging the future for today though. Hey how about that record storm in California?

It's a multi-mandate to focus on what's best for your yourself and society such as your mind, your body, your chosen family, your friends, your neighborhood/community, your city, state, country, the global population, and more abstract things such as the human condition, when evaluating things such as privilege or fairness or duty.

You often have to make compromises somewhere in the hierarchy, especially in late-stage capitalism where even access to basic needs comes at a moral cost, and as such those compromises sometimes come with a moral duty. I am writing this via a computer built from limited natural resources, some of which have been obtained through what I see as slave labor. I don't eat meat and still have to acknowledge the harm that clearing and maintaining farmland does to wildlife, even if the result could theoretically be a net gain.

When you start viewing situations through the lens of game theory, you realise some compromises are inevitable for the rational individual. But you must acknowledge the individual is not the only concern. As such, I use AI as part of my work, but I opposed the local buildout of a large data center in my community and tried in vain to make the person responsible for the deal understand the issues it could introduce. This isn't NIMBYism, we need a halt on all buildouts until fundamental environmental and accountability concerns are addressed.

And many other aspects of my existence and quality of life, poor and underprivileged as I was growing up, have depended upon US imperialism. I have also produced a ton of waste just existing and owning pets. It's abhorrent.

I continue to ask myself how I can fulfill the moral duty which I have accrued and reduce my dependence on exploitative economic systems, but I also recognize that AI is the new social leverage and we only have so much time to use it to our advantage before it becomes institutionalized and wielded against the people. I also might only find future income stability by evolving with my industry.

Life is complicated.

This resonates with me and I suspect a lot of others here. As always life is more nuanced that many would have argue.

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