By "they" I assume you mean GrapheneOS supporters? I can only speak for myself, but I only flag things when they clearly deserve to be flagged. Fair discussions are important. They help us grow as people and even in our case, GrapheneOS, but we encounter a crazy amount of misinformation here. Some members of our team are also targets for endless harassment. It's so unfortunate that people behave that way. There are also clear sockpuppets attacking GrapheneOS while promoting others. There was a brand new account participating in this thread that was clearly doing that.
Misinformation, harassment, and people who are using unfair methods to win arguments and damage the reputation of others is unacceptable. That's the kind of thing that I flag. What other people do with their permissions is up to them, but I would say that I wouldn't condone people flagging just because they disagree. I'd consider flagging genuine questions to be awful behavior as well.
I ask a lot of questions in the GrapheneOS community, I oppose a lot of opinions that are held there, but I have never been "flagged" for questioning or for debating something. The only time somebody is going to be flagged is if they are being outright disrespectful spreading misinformation or just being a general asshole.
In the GrapheneOS community, "being outright disrespectful spreading misinformation" is pretty much anything that brings solid counter-arguments to Daniel Micay's personal points of view. You probably haven't tried debating some advanced security and privacy topics with them.
As a member of the GrapheneOS team, I can say you're very incorrect.
Within the project, there's a lot of discussion and collaboration. Daniel is the most famous of all of us because he started the project, but we all work together and value each other's opinions. You can see the same in the issue tracker and other places as well. All of us, Daniel included, are happy to consider other ideas or approaches.
Instead of making some broad accusation about someone, you should be more specific. I hope that your bitterness isn't because one of us rejected a feature request or explained why our team implemented something in a specific way that you disagree with.
As a community member I can also attest to this. After I gave Other8026 more details about my app and background I shared on the forum, they restored my thread.
As someone outside of GrapheneOS community and preferring an alternative phone to GOS, I do see flagging and downvoting of my posts on HN. I even stated clearly more than once that I am happy about the GOS development but just prefer something else that you can't get from it.
Nevertheless my (and others') comments are often considered as attacks. Examples of flagged comments:
Other people have noticed that GOS community attacks almost every other alternative, instead of joining forces against Google and co.: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49564756
The GrapheneOS crowd is constantly accusing everyone in attacks and spreading misinformation about their phones (including in this discussion). Simple replies to misunderstandings and links to earlier reply would be much more polite. At the same time, I also see FUD and misinformation about alternative phones from GOS supporters on HN, e.g., https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47855369
You do realize that people use the flag feature all the time, right? People have abused the feature to remove our comments in the past too. It's beyond unacceptable to accuse us, without basis, that we're flagging all of your comments.
You are accusing us of "attacking" other groups when we're repeatedly pulled into conversations and we give objective answers and respond to misinformation about GrapheneOS. We have every right to correct misinformation about GrapheneOS. We have every right to defend ourselves against harassment.
Objective facts aren't "attacks." Why are you misrepresenting what we say? Isn't it better if people can make informed decisions?
> It's beyond unacceptable to accuse us, without basis, that we're flagging all of your comments.
You are right that I have no evidence that this group flagged the comments. I just say that I see such pattern in GOS-related discussion. I did not accuse anyone about "all my comments" though. This would indeed be beyond unacceptable.
I am happy to receive objective answers to the misunderstandings. I do have a lot of misunderstandings, too. Replies from the GOS supporters are often helpful. However they often lack some respect to the alternatives. Words like "atrocious security" do not bring us closer.
You very actively seek out discussions about GrapheneOS where you make inaccurate claims about both GrapheneOS and our team. You frequently use it as an opportunity to heavily promote products which are the direct opposite of privacy and security hardened devices. Those products are heavily promoted by those companies with false marketing and misinformation.
Immense harm has been caused through the misconceptions the companies behind those products have propagated to make money. It harms actual privacy, security and open hardware efforts. We aren't on the same side as those companies and aren't working towards the same things. We aren't going to agree on that unless you eventually end up moving on to promoting different products without those issues.
We're on the same side as several legitimate projects you promote including QubesOS. However, you promote those as part of attacking GrapheneOS and usually group it together with phony privacy products.
This is a false narrative. You're engaging in personal attacks based on fabrications. It's a demonstration of why you would have had moderation intervention in the GrapheneOS community.
Here's the actual response:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50171175
By "they" I assume you mean GrapheneOS supporters? I can only speak for myself, but I only flag things when they clearly deserve to be flagged. Fair discussions are important. They help us grow as people and even in our case, GrapheneOS, but we encounter a crazy amount of misinformation here. Some members of our team are also targets for endless harassment. It's so unfortunate that people behave that way. There are also clear sockpuppets attacking GrapheneOS while promoting others. There was a brand new account participating in this thread that was clearly doing that.
Misinformation, harassment, and people who are using unfair methods to win arguments and damage the reputation of others is unacceptable. That's the kind of thing that I flag. What other people do with their permissions is up to them, but I would say that I wouldn't condone people flagging just because they disagree. I'd consider flagging genuine questions to be awful behavior as well.
I ask a lot of questions in the GrapheneOS community, I oppose a lot of opinions that are held there, but I have never been "flagged" for questioning or for debating something. The only time somebody is going to be flagged is if they are being outright disrespectful spreading misinformation or just being a general asshole.
In the GrapheneOS community, "being outright disrespectful spreading misinformation" is pretty much anything that brings solid counter-arguments to Daniel Micay's personal points of view. You probably haven't tried debating some advanced security and privacy topics with them.
As a member of the GrapheneOS team, I can say you're very incorrect.
Within the project, there's a lot of discussion and collaboration. Daniel is the most famous of all of us because he started the project, but we all work together and value each other's opinions. You can see the same in the issue tracker and other places as well. All of us, Daniel included, are happy to consider other ideas or approaches.
Instead of making some broad accusation about someone, you should be more specific. I hope that your bitterness isn't because one of us rejected a feature request or explained why our team implemented something in a specific way that you disagree with.
As a community member I can also attest to this. After I gave Other8026 more details about my app and background I shared on the forum, they restored my thread.
As someone outside of GrapheneOS community and preferring an alternative phone to GOS, I do see flagging and downvoting of my posts on HN. I even stated clearly more than once that I am happy about the GOS development but just prefer something else that you can't get from it.
Nevertheless my (and others') comments are often considered as attacks. Examples of flagged comments:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49565142
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49542065
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49536149
Other people have noticed that GOS community attacks almost every other alternative, instead of joining forces against Google and co.: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49564756
The GrapheneOS crowd is constantly accusing everyone in attacks and spreading misinformation about their phones (including in this discussion). Simple replies to misunderstandings and links to earlier reply would be much more polite. At the same time, I also see FUD and misinformation about alternative phones from GOS supporters on HN, e.g., https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47855369
You do realize that people use the flag feature all the time, right? People have abused the feature to remove our comments in the past too. It's beyond unacceptable to accuse us, without basis, that we're flagging all of your comments.
You are accusing us of "attacking" other groups when we're repeatedly pulled into conversations and we give objective answers and respond to misinformation about GrapheneOS. We have every right to correct misinformation about GrapheneOS. We have every right to defend ourselves against harassment.
Objective facts aren't "attacks." Why are you misrepresenting what we say? Isn't it better if people can make informed decisions?
> It's beyond unacceptable to accuse us, without basis, that we're flagging all of your comments.
You are right that I have no evidence that this group flagged the comments. I just say that I see such pattern in GOS-related discussion. I did not accuse anyone about "all my comments" though. This would indeed be beyond unacceptable.
I am happy to receive objective answers to the misunderstandings. I do have a lot of misunderstandings, too. Replies from the GOS supporters are often helpful. However they often lack some respect to the alternatives. Words like "atrocious security" do not bring us closer.
You very actively seek out discussions about GrapheneOS where you make inaccurate claims about both GrapheneOS and our team. You frequently use it as an opportunity to heavily promote products which are the direct opposite of privacy and security hardened devices. Those products are heavily promoted by those companies with false marketing and misinformation.
Immense harm has been caused through the misconceptions the companies behind those products have propagated to make money. It harms actual privacy, security and open hardware efforts. We aren't on the same side as those companies and aren't working towards the same things. We aren't going to agree on that unless you eventually end up moving on to promoting different products without those issues.
We're on the same side as several legitimate projects you promote including QubesOS. However, you promote those as part of attacking GrapheneOS and usually group it together with phony privacy products.
This is a false narrative. You're engaging in personal attacks based on fabrications. It's a demonstration of why you would have had moderation intervention in the GrapheneOS community.