I’ll say this until I am blue one the face. Nerds (software dev, maths etc) see how good LLMs are at things they care about and assume they will be broadly applicable in future.
There’s no reason to think this.
I’ll say this until I am blue one the face. Nerds (software dev, maths etc) see how good LLMs are at things they care about and assume they will be broadly applicable in future.
There’s no reason to think this.
> There’s no reason to think this.
There are lots of good reasons to think this.
The first is that LLMs used to be bad at each of these nerd things, then toppled them like dominos. There's a pattern over time.
Another reason to think this is g. Across every known measurement, human (and animal) intelligence is convergent. Being better at one thing correlates with being better at another thing. Although the reason is not perfectly clear, the pattern is well established, and seems to apply to LLMs too - GPT-6 is smarter than GPT-3 at everything, not just math. There's no reason to expect different for GPT-9.
That's just cocktail party level of thinking. LLMs are getting better at math, code and logic (and marginally better at science and general knowledge) because these are domains that can be objectively verified and thus there is a potentially infinite supply of 'facts' to generate and train on. These are very powerful but ultimately very abstract domains. For everything else the messy real world and its physical bottlenecks gets in the way and there's little reason to expect progress to accelerate. It still takes months to get mice to reproduce and run experiments on, no matter how knowledgeable about biology the models have become.
If anything, in some domains frontier models have become worse - claudisms and chatgpt idioms are making them notoriously bad at prose without a considerable amount of prompting and tweaking.
Is good writing verifiable? I don't think it is, but LLM's have been hillclimbing writing quality. That being said this is with the help of RLHF.
However there are many other domains which have verifiable rewards in the process of learning them, despite their overall impact not being verifiable. For example, the life sciences, an LLM could be given access to data about an organism, and then make predictions about how a drug or gene therapy will affect that organism. In economics, LLM's could create models of behavior, evaluate predictions over time and see how well those predictions match reality.
>claudisms and chatgpt idioms are making them notoriously bad at prose without a considerable amount of prompting and tweaking.
I think this is because a lot of people genuinely like the claudisms, even though a small minority of technical people don't.
The quality of natural language output from today’s LLMs seems no better and often worse than LLMs from 18 months ago, at least in my experience. It’s much harder to build a good RL loop for something subjective like good writing, compared to something with an objective and verifiable right or wrong answer, such as software or mathematics.
If you gave me natural language from a 125 IQ human and a 155 IQ human I'm not sure I could judge which human is smarter from the writing quality.
And that's a massive intelligence gap!
It may just be that writing is mostly saturated, and the remaining perceived gap is not quality but some kind of "cultural fit".
IQ is a useless thing, but you can absolutely tell intelligence from writing. You don't need to write like [author of your choice], you need smart ideas and the desire to make them understood.
AI writing sucks because there's no intent or choice behind it. It's human thought, blended by linear algebra into pink slime and extruded into sentences.
> IQ is a useless thing, but you can absolutely tell intelligence from writing.
This is inherently self-contradicting.
It is not, as IQ is not an all encompassing measure of intelligence.
IQ doesn't measure writing _at all_ does it?
It's not at all clear that LLMs have gotten significantly (much less hillclimbing) better at writing since GPT4-ish. They did get better at oulipo-like challenges (writing under silly, verifiable constraints like Fable's viral 'facetiously' poem) but that's far from being all there is to good writing.
Anecdotally, creative writing communities do report drastic differences in quality between models (it is my understanding that Gemma 4 is especially praised) so there is something to it being verifiable but it's a far cry from being something that can be distilled into objective math/code-like evals. One could even say it comes down to vibes.
>For example, the life sciences, an LLM could be given access to data about an organism, and then make predictions about how a drug or gene therapy will affect that organism.
Yes, biotech companies are doing this right now but ultimately they are just predictions and you still need cold hard biological data to ground them and iterate on. That's slow and expensive, especially for the juicy fields (human biology, food and crops, clinical trials) and you can't just plug billions of VC capital into the pipeline and hope for RSI. Physical (gotta procure all those labs and their equipment), human (gotta hire and pay specialists to run experiments), biological (gotta wait for organisms to reproduce, drugs to take effect, crops to grow), regulatory (gotta convince agencies that your fancy new drugs are legit) bottlenecks get in the way.
And biology is one of the easier fields where a path to RSI (if not accelerating) is conceivable. Good luck iterating on macroeconomics data where there are no replicates and 'experiments' take literal years if not decades.
>I think this is because a lot of people genuinely like the claudisms, even though a small minority of technical people don't.
My uncharitable take is that the abtruse jargon makes people feel smart for understanding it and gives a sense of belonging (as a closed circle of initiates who understand LLM cant), just like rationalists love to repackage old or unsavoury ideas under new nerdy smart sounding names.
By evaluations against human writers, LLM's have improved at writing.
https://vulsar.ai/benchmarks/creative-writing-v1/#cohort-ove...
>you still need cold hard biological data to ground them and iterate on... you can't just plug billions of VC capital into the pipeline and hope for RSI
Capital can get you a lot: access to wetlabs, historical medical data, ability to run simulations, creation of autonomous bio labs which run thousands of experiments in parallel. An LLM, in training on this flywheel of data can take in more information than a human biologist would be able to read in multiple lifetimes.
>Good luck iterating on macroeconomics data where there are no replicates and 'experiments' take literal years if not decades.
The better an LLM gets at simulating human behavior, the more accurately you can simulate economic policies and their effects via running simulations of agents in virtual societies. There are many routes that models can take to create a broader sense of the world without needing the world to provide data.
That benchmark is fascinating, thank you.
>By evaluations against human writers, LLM's have improved at writing.
I would really take those benchmarks with a pinch of salt. We already know benchmaxxing is a thing for evals that are objectively verifiable like code, and coding models that seem to perform well on benchmarks don't pass the vibes test, imagine all the caveats that come with such a subjective test like creative writing, not to mention control issues (are they the same human writers across benchmarks? Are they the same testers?)
>Capital can get you a lot: access to wetlabs, historical medical data, ability to run simulations, creation of autonomous bio labs which run thousands of experiments in parallel. An LLM, in training on this flywheel of data can take in more information than a human biologist would be able to read in multiple lifetimes.
I don't disageee and am in fact excited to see the advances, what I am arguing is that it is going to be slow because the hypothetic feedback loop that would improve the model is bottlenecked. There are actual physical and biological limits in our universe. Unless VCs find a way to make mice embryos and crops grow 10x faster (among the many, many other things that would be required for acceleration) the trickle of data is not going to be anything like the accelerating returns imagined for math and coding. And that's assuming biological RSI is possible which has yet to be proven - current foundation models are interesting but they are still specialized and there is no clear, obviously uniform way to encode the many, many modalities that exist in biological data.
>The better an LLM gets at simulating human behavior, the more accurately you can simulate economic policies and their effects via running simulations of agents in virtual societies. There are many routes that models can take to create a broader sense of the world without needing the world to provide data.
You wouldn't need to 'just' simulate human behavior (good luck with that btw) but the entire political and economic conditions in which they live. Even assuming this is possible the amount of compute you'd need to run would be astronomical. Given how all RAM capacity for '27 and '28 is near sold out, hyperscalers are running out of cash flow to finance buildout and Sam Altman complains when users say 'please' to LLMs I don't think this is in the near horizon.
There was a time when people believed in Moore's law too. Now even Jensen Huang says Moore's law is dead. There's also the adage from investing: past performance does not guarantee future returns. A little CYA sure, but also acknowledgement of latent factors and the entropy of the universe and its affect on any predictive modelling one might do.
I don't agree that they get uniformly better at everything, especially subjective skills.
For example, they have become more and more unintelligible when you ask for explanations or descriptive text. They assume you see the same context as them and shortcut explanations.
I've had to craft a skill to get them to produce remotely understandable explanations of even mildly complex/non-mainstream subjects.
This may be Curse of Knowledge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge on their part, and it also impacts human experts but still. Becoming better at one thing does not mean you become better at everything else, although I do agree with you that the better they become the more things there are they become good at, but their ability is still quite jagged and maybe increasingly so.
The delineation between knowledge and intelligence is useful here.
Knowledge can occasionally get in the way of some tasks, such as a master illustrator trying to draw like a child. Or as you've mentioned, an expert trying to explain to a beginner.
Even so, I disagree with you about model progress on communication - maybe there's a little jaggedness between minor model versions, but Opus 5.5 is a much much better communicator than, say, Claude 3 Opus.
I don't agree that Opus 5.5 is necessarily a better communicator than older models. In fact, I ran my own tests, and the difference wasn't very clear, and in terms of personal preference, the writing style of newer Anthropic models has really let me down. It doesn't reason like a person that imagines what the person they're explaining to might know or not know, or what they might think, as one usually does when trying to explain something to someone. They just fact-dump, like the problem solvers they are, since they are trained to solve user's problems correctly, efficiently and comprehensively, but they probably don't have a good internal representation of the user they're talking to, they are not really trained to imagine what we may think or feel, and thus, in my opinion, make pretty bad communicators (cf. the ocean of vibe coded READMEs on github that are horrendous to read).
For example, when asked to write a report on Docker and explain how it works, one of the first paragraphs was : "1. *Docker Engine*: The core component, which is a client-server application that uses a server component (the daemon) to manage containers and a client interface to interact with the daemon."
This is perfectly correct and makes sense for someone that is familiar with software engineering and already knows what containers are. Not so much for someone wanting a introduction to it. Do you imagine writing something like this at the very beginning of your explanation of Docker ? It even said: "I wrote it in the neutral register from your publication preferences, with no em dashes, and defined terms on first use.", when it didn't even define what a container is. I chose Docker at random, because I could judge if its explanation made sense, since I know how it works.
I’m not sure I agree that g explains all model capabilities. I think “claudespeak” is a consequence of the shift from training on RLHF to training on verifiable rewards. Thus the models seem to become worse at storytelling, fiction, readability, not better.
Even if we do accept that models have some “g” and that it correlates with all domains, there’s no reason to think that the current trajectory of LLM intelligence will grow more quickly or even as quickly. In every other technology we have an early period of slow growth during experimentation, and then a rapid period of growth, and then stagnation.
For all we know, 2026 could be the year of stagnation. It’s possible that we will reach finishing returns. If thats true, then it won’t matter how much that task correlates with overall g, because g won’t be increasing that much.
You are conflating intelligence with usefulness.
> Across every known measurement, human (and animal) intelligence is convergent. Being better at one thing correlates with being better at another thing.
LOL. Human (and animal!) intelligence is notoriously jagged. We're all basically idiots except for very narrow areas where we focus.
This is simply untrue. I tried to think of an animal example so I could give a concession, and there just...aren't any.
Smarter just means smarter.
As anyone who's needed to provide IT support to a doctor, lawyer, lauded academic or host of otherwise "smart professionals", can assert, you can be very very smart in one area and very stupid in another.
See for example Paul Framton https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/30/physicist-mode...
Ah I see.
This is the classic error in mixing up knowledge / experience and intelligence.
Intelligence is the ability to quickly process, understand, learn, and use information. It does not imply having already been exposed to any given information.
A smart doctor may have terrible computer skills. But this is from lack of experience and interest, not lack of ability to learn how to use computers.
But take that smart doctor, and a relatively dumb person who is equally inexperienced with computers. Now give them a month and incentive to learn computers. The doctor will learn much more; that's intelligence.
There is IQ, EQ, and even purely intellectual aspects have a million facets. So you're wrong even on that front.
Someone can be really good at physics and suck completely at biology, due to factors we don't even understand (motivation probably being the main one we do understand).
We even see this in practice with super bright tech people, especially programmers, failing at launching businesses or at adapting in other lines of work such as management, finance, etc.
> There is IQ, EQ, and even purely intellectual aspects have a million facets. So you're wrong even on that front.
This is simply not true. EQ is not a real construct supported by research. There are not 'intellectual aspects' that diverge from g.
Do yourself a favor and familiarize yourself with the psychological literature. I don't mean this in a condescending way! The gap between popular reporting and actual psych research is enormous and not at all your fault. I only know this myself because I did a PhD in research psychology.
Cats famously have more brainpower than dogs. But dogs understand us humans far better than any cat.
Someone who actually works with real animals (farmers? Ranchers??) would come up with better examples. But I'm just city boy over here who only meets cats and dogs on a regular basis.
I was about to respond 'great counterexample' but I looked it up and apparently dogs actually have quite a bit more brainpower than cats:
https://www.britannica.com/story/are-dogs-smarter-than-cats
Hmm, I can believe that it depends on the breed of a dog.
But in any case, Britannica is a good source so I stand corrected on this subject.
There is every reason to think this. Its about available quality data. The data that was easiest to fetch was already there, then we got some more data by asking experts to create datasets for post training. Once this is over, we will get to the outer world that didn't get to hoard it for bots to take it. This will certainly change. Put on a smart glasses and record what you do to fix a pipe. In 3-5 years, rinse and repeat.
Maybe, I'm at the point I don't know what to think anymore. But somehow, this feels still non-human. Humans don't need millions of hours of training and millions of samples to learn how do to something. We have proof that systems can deal with low-shot training. So why can't these? My point is when we have human level learning ability, then we're moving, if we expect expansion of capabilities to come from data alone, I'm prepared for disappointment.
To form an human to do frontier research requires decades since birthdate
It will be comparable once the AI is self sustainable and self reproducible (no big data centers behind it). Then it will have to deal with limited resources to run itself like humans do. In that scenario it will no longer have entire world of knowledge at its hands - options will be to cut anything not usable imediately or to communicate with big AI in the cloud.
Just like the nerds thought about computers, or the internet, or video games, or smartphones, or crypto, or... whatever.
The most passionate, intelligent people are usually a decent indicator of where culture is going to go.
> The most passionate, intelligent people are usually a decent indicator of where culture is going to go.
Many very smart people who I know are quite skeptical of LLMs and the hype around them. In my observation/echo chamber, the people who are very into LLMs are rather slick, career-minded people who love to present themselves as trendsetters for the "next fancy thing".
The most passionate, intelligent people 1. aren’t spending a lot of time on smartphones, video games and crypto and 2. aren’t as much smarter or better at predicting the future as the barely above average people who mistakenly count themselves in their ranks like to think.
Most of those technologies were controversial in their inception among the nerds of the time. Remember Eternal September? Linux/Windows people making fun of Apple hipster fans? Mainframe engineers deriding PCs as unserious and video games as childish?
>The most passionate, intelligent people are usually a decent indicator of where culture is going to go.
That's a naive view of cultural determinism. The software landscape would have been very different if a handful of lawsuits had gone one way or another. Hell, even Unix and Linux were hobby projects that accidentally got big.
Also crypto is a grift lol, one of those is definitely not like the others
Steve jobs wasn’t a nerd - he said he’s a hippie on the lost interview. He was also the first to bring to market colour screens, typography etc. He also defined the Internet as the defining ‘social moment’ way before anyone else.
So you’re wrong pal, sorry.
These have all been mistakes though.
Being good (or superhuman) at software dev and maths shouldn't be treated as though it's equivalent to other domains.
Unlocking mastery of those domains would lead to incredible gains in all others. Whereas a fundamental advancement in many other domains doesn't spread as readily.
I’m not sure. LLMs are superhuman in terms of workload (they are maybe also superhuman in ability too), but where does that lead us.. cheaper software?
That’s good for corporations who need custom software. Every large business has a massive backlog. In this area reducing the cost will massively increase demand.
But where’s the broader value?
Consumers and business already have too much choice in off the shelf software.
Ultimately most people just need word, excel and maybe 4 computer games a year.
> Nerds (software dev, maths etc) see how good LLMs are at things they care about and assume they will be broadly applicable in future.
It's worse than that. I am one of those nerds (a programmer), and I see that LLMs are shit at the things I care about. I have zero reason to believe that they will be good at other things either.
> Nerds (software dev, maths etc) see how good LLMs are at things they care about and assume they will be broadly applicable in future.
I don't think this explanation is sufficient:
For example, many nerds care about 3D printing. On the other hand, my experiments (and the experiments of many nerds who I know) to let LLMs create files for 3D printing lead to horrendously lacking results.
Or many nerds care about linguistics or puns. Whenever a new LLM comes out to which I have easy access, I do the test, and let it explain some specific German jokes to me that are based on convoluted puns in the German grammar. Until now, no LLM that I had access to could give satisfying explanations of the puns on which these jokes are based.
Or even for coding (many nerds do care about elegant, sophisticated code): the LLMs that I could test were already overchallenged with the following task: I had written some code that is a very "artisanal", "clever" improvement of an algorithm over the version that one would find in a textbook. The task for the LLM was simply to write some code comments/documentation about the mathematical ideas upon which my improvement over the textbook version of the algorithm is based. It wasn't capable to do this. On the other hand, for a junior programmer, I would in such a situation expect that he goes through every single line and thinks through the algorithmic ideas so that he can learn from them.
---
Thus: even for "nerdy" topics, it is very easy to find tasks where LLMs still suck. So, my hypothesis about the nerds that you mention in your post is that these nerds are rather people who want to believe (with religious fervor) that the current LLMs are exceptionally good instead of just looking into a slightly different direction than where the tech billionaires want the users of LLMs to look at.
You’re having a hard time distinguishing nerds and hippies.
Hippies live at the center of technology and humanities.
Nerds sit purely in technology.
I honestly don't get your point: perhaps your argument is based on some US-specific cultural reference that I am not aware of since I don't live in the USA.
If it is, I don't get it either. That's not at all what I imagine with hippies and I suspect that was supposed to be some other word.
Nerds are also not necessarily all about technology. "Math nerd" was a really common use of the term for a long time, for example. "Nerd" is someone with deep knowledge about a particular subject.
> For example, many nerds care about 3D printing. On the other hand, my experiments (and the experiments of many nerds who I know) to let LLMs create files for 3D printing lead to horrendously lacking results.
Try again; astra has been driving fusion for me. I took a screenshot of a self watering cat grass bin on makerworld — not even the stl, a screen cap of one of the photos attached to the design — and it made me a parameterized version in one shot.
Its initial design was less than ideal for printability and it reworked the design correctly when asked to consider what it originally produced through the lens of printability.
Autodesk bundled an mcp server with fusion in the last few weeks and i expect things to get even better going forward.
> Try again; astra has been driving fusion for me. I took a screenshot of a self watering cat grass bin on makerworld — not even the stl, a screen cap of one of the photos attached to the design — and it made me a parameterized version in one shot.
I have no access to Astra, but with GPT 6.1 Sol, the results with respect to attempting to create STL, OBJ or even OpenSCAD files by using image references and a prompt were really bad.
Did you give your model tools to see results and refine as it works through the turn? It does matter how you hold these models at the moment
[dead]
Correct spot on