Yeah cool.
How long before the same thing is done to like, banking back ends? Wallstreet proprietary software? Amazons logistics and distribution systems?
It seems like we might be weeks/days/hours before a situation where someone back engineers and spoofs a system so pivotal to modern human society that the plug needs to be pulled.
Like I've said many times: LLMs are useful for this (i.e. porting software from one programming language to another).
Porting software is painstaking grunt work which still takes a moderate amount of intelligence. It's therefore extremely expensive to port say, COBOL banking software running on mainframes, to another language like Java. That's why a lot of COBOL software is still in use. I expect this to die out in the coming years as many of these systems will finally be ported to another language (could be Rust or any other language).
In many ways the financial system is a distributed monolith. COBOL is still around because of bugs and issues (sometimes in code, sometimes in the OS it ran on, sometimes in the computer hardware) that have been around for decades are often dealt with downstream with their own exceptions. This is why IBM still sells mainframes. They literally emulate software and hardware bugs from equipment as far back as the 1960s.
I spoke with a semi-retired COBOL programer about a decade ago. They literally often can't fix specific bugs because multiple other consumers (from banks, hedge funds, insurance companies, the central bank) outside of their organization (and subsequent downstream consumers as well) would all need to adjust their code. Rewriting it is grand, but won't fix the spaghetti code mess. This is made even worse in the US, which has a much more fragmented banking system. "Modern" COBOL isn't even that bad, but they can't even use it most of the time. There is SO MUCH that isn't even documented - and if it is, is in a binder that's been shelved decades ago and half of this developers time was going into the corporate archives to dig it up.
This isn't to say that a lot of legacy code can't be modernized, but it's not always that easy.
If someone recreates Amazon's logistics and distribution systems they could try to compete with Amazon? But they'd also need the connections, distributors, transportation, etc. same with banking software, you need capital to be a bank not just software, and if they have the capital then the technology is working we intended making it easier to make new things and innovate, or at least just compete?
No, I am not talking about "taking over" companies and trying to emulate them and do business yourself. You just need to be able to break trust in the api calls and no one knows if a purchase order or transaction is legitimate.
Obviously you need to have access to the keys, BUT I don't see this as a dealbreaker anymore because you just get your agents to go and find them.
I think you’re saying ‘being able to do this means the opportunity for more fraud, by producing fake XYZ as proof’.
Photoshop has been around for around 35 years, fraud has always been an issue. There are plenty of reports of people selling things via Facebook marketplace and the ‘buyer’ showing them sending a payment on a fake baking app. Fraud will always exist and I don’t think tech will make it worse, everyone needs to be more cautious and tells friends and family to be the same.
Nah small potato stuff.
I'm talking about cloning hmi platforms to send fake instructions to offshore oil platform valve bodies or insert false market trades to collapse companies.
Ah. So in that instance are those platforms not validating that the things submitting information are correct and true. A bit like a utility company needing to do manual reads every now and then to ensure they are getting a correct signal.
Or perhaps uploading faulty firmware to centrifuge controllers?
Or they can just take your money and not send out anything.
Alternatively, you just act as a middleman drop shipper and slightly raise the price more than Amazon’s and skim the difference. It might be a while before they find out.
Example, parking places with QR codes for paying webapps.
Currently a plague in some European countries.
It looks like the real site, and you pay twice, in the fake app, and later the police.
That’s an insecure design. The way we do it here is that you install an app and register your register number and payment card in it. Then when you drive in and out from the parking lot your license plate is scanned and you’re automatically charged. There’s only two providers so it’s not a huge hassle, if there was a single app per garage it would not really work from UX perspective.
No room for hostile social engineering.
Are you sure to install the right app though?
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyjqg578e1o
And given your German nickname, here isn't safe either in a general way, when folks aren't regularly parking on the same place.
https://www.adac.de/news/verkehr-quishing-parkautomaten
Yep. On a small scale, you could skim money off transactions. On a large scale, you could break global distribution and logistics chains.
> spoofs a system so pivotal to modern human society that the plug needs to be pulled.
why would a recreated system be detrimental?
If currently there's a monopoly on a software, this AI recreation is a good outcome to poke holes in that monopoly. It's only bad if you are financially invested in said monopoly, and this would be a minority compared to the amount of benefits that society at large could obtain.
This is basically a digital era anarchist view - the problem you're overlooking is that a lot of critical infrastructure we rely on runs on systems that are considered security through obscurity. Software most people probably wouldn't even know or care that it exists. If you can break the trust of vendors by being able to spoof their proprietary platforms, a lot of the highly efficient networked systems becomes vulnerable to injection and abuse if you can't trust whos making calls to it.
In the past you'd need nation state actors with considerable budgets to do this kind of thing, and we're on a trajectory that could see any kid in his bedroom could do it.
revealing that security thru obscurity is broken can only lead to a better future, even if in the intermediate one there are lots of breakages. It's suffering that needs to happen, and better sooner rather than later imho.
And i assume you don't truly mean spoof as in man-in-the-middling someone - i assume you mean the end user knows they are using an alternate system and are not being defrauded. Like using a photoshop replacement.
> And i assume you don't truly mean spoof as in man-in-the-middling someone - i assume you mean the end user knows they are using an alternate system and are not being defrauded.
I am, actually, talking about MITM attacks that are much further in scope than just defrauding some people using their banking app. I work in resources and operate HMI systems that are networked, but not exactly the bleeding edge of modern software development. If you had an ability to decompile it and recompile your own version you could start sending instructions to infrastructure all over the country - the only thing stopping you is the keys, which if you're intent on hacking someone you'd have the means to obtain anyway.
I can see a lot broader attack vectors than just stealing peoples money. It's the erosion of trust in the api calls themselves.
> It's the erosion of trust in the api calls themselves.
and that's why security thru obscurity fails. It just hasn't so far.
And if this is the current state of affairs, then the change and pain is what needs to happen for the system to improve.
For example, all api calls would have some form of authentication and attestation.
>banking back ends
As someone who works in a bank: depending on the exacty subsystem of a bank the answer is from "already" to "in 3-5 years".
Making predictions for in 5 years with the current dynamic of the ecosystem seems rather speculative
I’m already seeing videos of people who have used LMs to reverse engineer and clean room reimplement entire video games. I estimate this shit is minutes away from being shut down, because as we’ve all seen companies stealing is OK, but individuals stealing is heinous and a crime.
I mean some people (me included) have been begging society to pull that plug since over 10 years now.
The plug being "the cloud" and "hooking everything up to the same internet".
These confusion attacks can only confuse people, because critical systems can exist in the same space where entertainment systems and all other categories of systems live. This was wrong even before LLMs.