Allow me to switch to asshole mode for a minute:
"Things used to be so good" is mostly rose-tinted glasses: What exactly WAS the "old web" anyway?
100s of half-baked sites hosted on Geocities, Yahoo, about pointless stuff? Epilepsy simulator websites splattered with gif-vomit? Everyone and their grandmother asking you to install their 10 toolbars?
Honest, serious question: What actually was of objective substance on the old internet that's nowhere to be found now?
You can find random pointless stuff now too, just that except Geocities/Yahoo it's Intsagram/TikTok/Twitter etc.
If you mean self-hosted websites, they're still here, and nothing's stopping you from creating your own.
If you loved all the Flash toons on Newgrounds etc there's unironically a lot more shorts and animations on YouTube or even Vimeo now, if you but search for them (the old gods like Weebl, David Firth are still there, and I suggest Sechi, DoodletmeGo, Nondescript Video Club, and からめる to start with then let the algorithm soak up the weirdness)
Just as the "internet" supplanted newspapers, magazines, and broadcast television for many people,
and how the newspapers replaced the town criers before them,
why shouldn't the "internet" be supplanted by a more accessible medium?
There's so much crap on the "old" and "middle age" internet: ads, scams, anal mods, trolls, bandwagons, vote wars, low-effort content and other repetitive noise that could be bypassed by just asking AI about something and make better use of your limited mortal lifetime, like watching that anime you've been putting off for years.
For me that's not the old web.
The old web was local forum created by gamers for gamers who hosted real life events. You could post asking for super specific advice to your locale. It was eaten by reddit.
There were cool IRC servers for all sorts of niche projects and topics. This still exists of course but a lot of it was eaten by Discord or Slack.
While I never participated, sites like LiveJournal provided both a unique outlet and view into other people's lives. I think a lot of social media like Instagram and Facebook eat this up.
I'm sure everyone has their own versions. And this is the old web that was gobbled up by mega sites which aim to commericalise the crap out of everything.
Btw I consider HN part of the old web.
I loved Diaryland since it was fully customizable. It was my intro into templating! It was very crude, but it worked.
Oh my gosh I loved Diaryland, and how you could customize your shit with some simple HTML, but I think they went through enshittification while they were still around anyway
But..what says something like Diaryland can't be brought back now?
Did they? I think it was LiveJournal that enshittified. Diaryland is actually still around. I just checked it out and it now "Diaryland v2!" I actually last checked it out in the past year and it still looked exactly like it did back then!
Well there you go: The "old web" is still here or can be, but most of the people complaining about the "new web" don't really care about it anymore, they just pretend to
I guess that's what I was getting at, I think that (as usual) there is more nuance here past "people pretending to care" (which I think is extremely uncharitable, btw).
Back then there was a forcing factor to making your own website. Not just personal sites, but bands, artists, interest groups, etc. Now everyone just uses facebook because (or whatever) because it's easy and everyone is there. Even during the transition was better as myspace allowed you to customize the crap out of it with CSS and, as we were just discussing, DiaryLand gave you full access to do almost whatever you wanted (in the confines of static pages).
It has a LOT to do with billion dollar companies throwing their weight around and influencing politics. Tom never did that shit! (although given time, who knows... he did sell out).
Newer websites are filtered through what is acceptable from a corporate lens.
The old web culture can't exist because advertisers won't let it exist on modern platforms.
Additionally the spread of information is significantly less organic because of relentless pushes to use algorithmic feeds along with far worse distractions from content than there used to be.
> The old web culture can't exist because advertisers won't let it exist on modern platforms.
Again, what's preventing you from buying a domain name and putting up your own website? bypass the advertisers?
"Not enough people will see it", you say? So you want the reach provided by "modern platforms" but you don't want their rules?
Nice strawman you're attacking. Kinda weird that you're arguing with yourself at this point.
The best way I can explain it is that the old web was like going to thousands of individual boutiques, and the new web is like going to a dozen or so big supermarkets. Even if the boutiques were sometimes bad, at least they were unique and you could feel there was a real person behind each of them. The supermarkets sell everything, but they feel sterile and bland.
Yes you can still find roughly all the same stuff. No it's not the same.
Three. Three big supermarkets.
When was the last time you actually visited any of the Old Web websites? I just found that Diaryland and Halfbakery are still around, over 20 years old, but it's been years since I visited them
Even though there was a lot of forced enshittification, the tech did not really force people to change: it's that fewer people feel the need to be the way they used to be.
and that can change again
I think it is a case of, it is easier to find those niches nowadays but when you do it is a more shallow and controlled version of said thing.
On the old web, you would just stumble onto something deep but the barrier to get to it was fairly high. It could also just be total nonsense but at least you could see the passion behind it.
I agree with your general take. People talk about the old web as 'the good old days' but it really wasn't that great. I do have some fond memories of the mid 2000's when it was all starting to mature but also before corporate capture took hold. Even then, you would just end up stumbling around blindly most of the time.
Niches nowdays are far deeper and more vibrant than they were 20 years ago. Instead of 1 guys website or 1 fourm with 30 users you now have many discord servers with 1000s of users talking in real time, youtube channels putting out videos and making money, reddit/lemmy aggregating content, the community interacting in real time and building what it needs.
And they have to self censor so they don't get banned off those platforms.
There are so many piracy discords where you can't ask how to pirate something because that's against discord rules. I mean really? Why are you using it then?
Most niches dont have to self censor. Even the ones that do still have no trouble communicating their message. I follow a lot of military channels and they post uncensored versions of their videos off yt but there is little reason to go because seeing the gore is not why im watching the video. I still get the entire value of the video from youtube even though you might argue its self censoring.
There's a lot of people who want to talk about things like Gaza or Luigi Mangione more, but can't because of platform rules. The new web has been successful at changing society at large by preventing discussion of these things. Even here on HN I have to be careful how I describe this effect, because an account that is flagged a few times in quick succession is automatically rate-limited, which is effectively a ban.
Edit: it's not just about a niche being forced to censor, it's also about everyone being forced to censor talk about that niche. In a video games discord you couldn't talk about piracy, no matter what the owner thinks about piracy, he'd be forced to ban you for talking about piracy or else he would be banned.
There is plenty of discussion on Gaza or Luigi. If you find youself being "censored" consider that your views and "solutions" are far outside what is accepted on the platform. On the old web you could also get banned if your views did not align with the platform.
Dont compare wanting a pro terrorism fourm with niche interests its so disingenuous.
> What exactly WAS the "old web" anyway?
Pre-Google, specifically, pre-PageRank, and even more specifically, pre-SEO.
Your post is oddly hyper-focused on pointing out the negatives, probably due to the asshole hat you put on. There were lots of good sites with tons of good, free information, and because the main way people searched was using directories, we weren't inundated with 1,000s of results on the same topic, vying for a top-placement. The writing itself was much more laid back because SEO-optimization didn't exist. Also, those "half-baked GeoCities sites" were awesome! Of course there were a lot of junk ones, but again, it was just a bunch of people writing about themselves, their interests, and generally being creative. And again, NO ONE WAS TRYING TO MAKE MONEY, they were just doing it. No "like and subscribe." No gaming an algorithm. I used to love finding guitar tabs on those sites and I had a couple of sites with lots of tabs I did on my own for two different bands.
> There's so much crap on the "old" and "middle age" internet: ads, scams, anal mods, trolls, low-effort content, that could be bypassed by just asking AI about something and make better use of your limited mortal lifetime.
I feel like this was GP's point, no? Because people are just using AI for search now (this is the main reason I use it) that there will be no point in making these spamming sites anymore, which "opens up" the internet a bit for those of us who enjoyed the old way. Yes, it's all still out there, but it's kind of hard to find, and it would be kinda neat if more people discovered making their websites outside of walled gardens.
> Your post is oddly hyper-focused on pointing out the negatives
because people are hyper-focused on the negatives of the "current" web, or acting like the sites they used to love can't be recreated anymore..
> it was just a bunch of people writing about themselves, their interests, and generally being creative.
There still are. on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, Reddit, 5ch and other Japanese subcommunities.. the fact that they're all "silo'ed" into these less-than-benign corpoctopuses is another matter, but people are still people'ing
> because people are hyper-focused on the negatives of the "current" web, or acting like the sites they used to love can't be recreated anymore..
Fair!
> There still are. on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, Reddit, 5ch and other Japanese subcommunities.. the fact that they're all "silo'ed" into these less-than-benign corpoctopuses is another matter, but people are still people'ing
I know there are, but as per my comment, it's just harder to find and you used to almost not be able to avoid it. I don't think platforms like YouTube and Instagram are great examples due to the monotization... everyone is trying to "make it." But ya, I mean, I do know it's out there. But I think the whole point wasn't that this stuff doesn't still exist, just that maybe it will become the more prevalent thing again. At least that's how I read GP's comment. But who knows.
it's not "another thing", it means that your community forum lives on reddit (or whoever's) sufferance, and is subject to some corporation's capricious and arbitrary whims.
this comment brings up a good concrete example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49293553
This is a better comment on the same page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49296018
Basically: "everyone has a different idea about what the Old Web™ was depending on when they first started using the internet, and when the community they liked was discontinued or changed"
that's a good comment for sure, but it doesn't address what I was talking about - specifically, in the "old internet" it was a lot commoner for a community to own its online spaces, usually by virtue of having one or two technically minded members who volunteered to run the infrastructure, and thanks to a lot of the required software being open source. sure, it's nice that anyone can just create a subreddit or facebook group now with no technical knowledge required, but there are definite ways in which living in someone else's space shapes your experience for the worse.
> Because people are just using AI for search now (this is the main reason I use it) that there will be no point in making these spamming sites anymore
Or: because people are just using AI for search now, the only websites left will be spamming sites trying to rank in/influence AI results.
Think about it: if human traffic is no longer optimized for, and the entire focus was catering to bot traffic, how amazing are you imagining that those bot-optimized sites will be?
> ads, scams, anal mods, trolls, low-effort content
and don't forget Big Billy's "no more tears" guarantee on all anal mods purchased from the official BBAM shop!
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I like your quote formatting, I'll steal it. And no, yes I do like butt stuff :)
Seems like most of your whinge is "AI → anti-AI measures → net bad for everyone"
Like guy, as if you didn't notice all the enshittification happening for decades before that. All this AI shit is barely 1-2 years old at most.