> human rights and all that rubbish
Denying human rights. Classic. Sorry - you instantly lost any respect I could have maybe had for your opinion.
> human rights and all that rubbish
Denying human rights. Classic. Sorry - you instantly lost any respect I could have maybe had for your opinion.
I don't think you're taking the good-faith reading of the sentence's grammar here, which is:
"[When China is mentioned] the comments section stops discussing [technical aspects], and instead starts going on about [non-technical aspects], and all that [stuff which I do not feel is relevant]."
I'm struggling, though, to find a good-faith reading of what you meant by:
"Denying human rights. Classic. Sorry - you instantly lost any respect I could have maybe had for your opinion."
Specifically, "classic" - classic what? "Classic" meaning "a trait you personally believe is more prevalent in people who (might be) citizens of a specific country"?
Hopefully the good-faith interpretation of GP's comment, which you might have unintentionally missed, will help you engage with their opinion with more respect.
I think it's an easy opinion to empathise with personally. I would be enormously frustrated myself, on an individual level, if interesting technical achievements made by companies in my own country were overshadowed by political discussion about the actions of the country overall, when spoken about on technical forums.
This would be especially true for me if I - as an individual - disagreed with politically with my country's leadership. Frustration at a topic of discourse is not mutually exclusive with being in favour of human rights.
I don't think GP has done themselves any favours with the broad statements that close their comment, and is clearly frustrated themselves. That there's mutual frustration is probably a sign that empathy on both sides might lead to a really productive discussion - but focusing on the more substantive points they've made, rather than escalating by misinterpreting the less important aspects of what they commented - is what will lead to that.
More of this kind of thinking is needed in the world, yet is very often vilified as not taking sides.
I continue to be dismayed at how simple it has become to turn people towards hate.
It's an interesting question, I think, because GGP is correct to say that geopolitical discussion dominates posts about work done by Chinese developers and organisations. That work is fascinating and innovative.
On the one hand, those orgs are tied to a global superpower. I couldn't name a single global superpower that has existed - ever - which hasn't committed acts I personally consider deeply immoral. I don't think we typically discuss OpenAI's work, and learn from it, in quite the same way we discuss the work of Chinese labs. OpenAI is a US defence contractor, and - whether you agree or not - it must be acknowledged that a lot of people would see actions like the invasions of Afghanistan or Iraq as deeply immoral. I don't think "which country is more evil?" or "which org is more embedded in its government?" is a productive route for this discussion - to me it seems like whataboutism. Others would disagree.
On the other hand, technical and artistic innovation has been sponsored and patronised by wealthy organisations (nation states and religions, predominantly) throughout history. That wealth was, generally speaking, acquired very violently. What does this do to the moral status of the work itself? I don't have an answer to that.
I do think I have a lot more in common with the average Chinese developer than I have in common with the average British (or American) political leader. I also believe the average Chinese developer has more in common with the average American developer than they do with the average Chinese political leader.
Lots of people might disagree with me about that, which is fine. What would be more difficult to disagree with, I think, is that I personally think I can learn a lot more from talking to people about the work we share than about the politics we do not.
Some examples: I personally think the Kimi line of models have been, for some time, by far the strongest of any lab's at creative writing tasks. I don't know how they've managed that. I'm completely obsessed with Bilibili ("China's YouTube"). I think many of its features are outstanding, and unmatched by anything a western video platform currently offers. The video content hosted there is often innovative, and occasionally artistically brilliant; the AI video usage specifically is notably more artistically advanced than anything I've seen on western platforms.
I'd love to listen and talk to some of the people who worked on this stuff, or who know more about it (perhaps in a less off-topic place!). I'd really love to work alongside those human beings. Because of geopolitics, that isn't easy. That is really frustrating to me. HN would, I think, in an ideal world, be a place that could happen.
Perhaps whenever a US firm, eg. Open AI, Anthropic, Gemini, Grok etc. release a model.
Top comments should be criticising US torture camps in Guantanamo bay or their recent bombing of a girls school in Iran.
The difference is that Chinese companies and their government are much more intertwined than their American (or Western, in general) counterparts.
It seems much more reasonable to look at actions a Chinese company takes through the lens of what their government wants, than it does to do the same for a Western company.
Pretty sure Anthropics models were directly involved in the bombing of that girls school in Iran.
OpenAI and Anthropic are both defense contractors. SpaceXAI too, obviously.
> The difference is that Chinese companies and their government are much more intertwined than their American (or Western, in general) counterparts.
A very naive take that is trivially refuted when you look at the history of military contractors and how lobbying works in the US.
Military contractors, like banks and other pieces of corporate infrastructure, are extensions of the US government. They are beholden to profits first but US government interests as a really close second.
I don't believe the GP is claiming that the idea of human rights is itself rubbish. Rather, the GP is claiming that what is rubbish is the practice of veering into the topic of human rights whenever a new AI model is announced from China.
You are not allowed to discuss human rights until your government stops its unprovoked war on Iran, issues a full repudiation of the policies that led to it, and makes full reparations to the entire rest of the world whose energy prices you have driven up for the benefit of a handful of wealthy inside traders.
Edit: Parent poster wasn't American. I incorrectly assumed their nationality.
Or maybe the USians need to talk more about human rights, as opposed to just Amrican right? And maybe discuss other ethical and political issues in a rational way too. And less like everything is a fotball match with us agains them?
Not a US citizen. But yeah, Germany does quit a lot of shit these days as well and will be doing even more, once we get our far right government after the next election. Will be the day I set my bug out plan in motion.
My apologies for incorrectly assuming your nationality.
And stops solitary confinement as a routine thing in prisons, which is literal torture. And stops death penalty. And provides basic healthcare instead of letting millions die.
> Denying human rights.
Taking words out of context. Classic. Sorry - you instantly lost any respect I could have maybe had for your opinion.
I don't see anyone talking about Trump, ICE executing people in the streets, the insane level of US politics, the slow build up of the surveillance state, etc when discussing claude or openai
You don't? Have you tried opening your eyes?
I don't see it in grok or chatgpt launch threads.
> I don't see it in grok or chatgpt launch threads.
There's some wilful ignorance in your comments. Elon Musk's businesses have been taking a colossal hit due to his role in the Trump administration and pushing fascism across the world. To say that grok, the very models that have been announced to be trained as "anti woke", as not being subjected to criticism, is beyond belief.
Please link these comments in chatgpt, grok, claude and gemini announcement threads on hacker news.
he never said anything about denying human rights
I think he means rubbish as in completely off topic.
Perhaps, but I am struggling to find a worse phrasing to get a point across.
The guy is using translation software to post it. So maybe don’t take the phrasing into consideration too much and focus on the intended meaning behind it.
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