A friend and I were talking about this. What would you pay for it?
When iTunes + came out, you had 2 options, you could buy a song for $0.99 or you could be the plus version for more, I don't remember but it was like $1.35 or something. Plus had a higher bit rate and it wasn't encrypted.
Suppose you could buy a movie for $12.00, how much would you pay for the forever version? $30?
[delayed]
I feel like you're kind of making this more complicated than it actually is, either because you're overcomplicating it or because you're trying to tee up some rhetorical point, but the answer to your question is really quite simple and objective: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=movie&rh=p_n_format_browse-bin%3A...
You don't need to ask a hypothetical, the market has an answer.
To the extent your reply is "but that's not exactly what my question is", my point is that the market is already pricing all sorts of situations and the market would have no problem pricing just one more possibility into the already complicated market. Including "piracy", and people like me who are treating the vast majority of DVDs and BluRays as just a delivery mechanism for streams rather than "discs".
Depends on what those $12 "buy" me. In Sony's case, "buying" meant "renting until Sony's license expires", which they could have displayed on the product page.
I very rarely re-watch movies within a few months. So if I buy one, I want to know that I can watch it again in one, 10 or 30 years (if the format can still be played). Which is not guaranteed even with blu-rays mostly thanks to DRM. But what I'd be buying is not having to think about any deadlines.
If I'm okay with a deadline, I might as well rent the movie for a weekend, in which case I expect it to be less than $12.
My problem is that they told me *I* was buying a license. I didn't know I was actually buying a sublicense that was dependent upon Sony's.
I didn't buy any of the show, but that's the core here. Sony lied.
If I buy a DVD, it costs a fixed price.
Why should it be variable, if we talk about digital media? Storage and content streaming is cheaper than embracing a whole logistic (producing DVDs/BlueRays, packaging, shipping).
But here we are again: if you buy something digital, you just pay for a "usage license", you don't own anything at all. After all these years or decades, I am still surprised that people expect to own digital content, forever
> I am still surprised that people expect to own digital content, forever
Well, that's how it's sold. The buttons say something like "Rent"/"Buy" not "Short Term Rental"/"Indeterminate Term Rental".
To be an internet consumer you have to have some level of confidence in the good faith of the seller, including that the basic description of what's being sold is accurate. Otherwise, you wouldn't consider sending your money at all. Probably most people see "Sony" and trust that brand not to scam them.
But so as much anymore.
There's a big difference between owning content, and having access to download content. The problem here is that you were not buying a version you could download and store on your system, and just play it back with whatever. So you 'bought' it while it was still under their control etc.
But like so many other comments here state: it's very much a known fact that 'buying' something like this is just renting it for a short time period. We must keep fighting for them to actually state this in bold text before you pay them.
Is it radical to (through regulation) force part of the sales figure to go towards a trust that pays for CDN hosting+some simple server for authenticating ownership in the case of the service shutting down?
It could even incentivize actors to consider other options, like selling access to download the files themselves
With digital you're hoping the 'store' keeps it in storage for you in perpetuity so you can redownload/stream it. If you buy a DVD and lose it you can't go back for another free copy. There's definitely an issue that the original license should allow you to always download and backup your copy DRM free so you will always have access but most people aren't going to do that. I bought lots of music/video content from iTunes over the years and rarely back it up. The fact I can just stream it/redownload it from them is very useful but it's also unreasonable for me to expect that Apple should be hosting my 99¢ purchase for the rest of time.
That's not a great example, because once I pay Apple I can copy the song to my local device and keep it myself. I would hope Apple would keep it on their servers ready for me for the rest of my life, but if I don't I can still access my purchases.
it's also unreasonable for me to expect that Apple should be hosting my 99¢ purchase for the rest of time
That's fair so long as it was made clear at the time of purchase that you aren't buying the song, and that you're only renting it for a while. If they didn't put a clear explanation that you might lose access on the page when you clicked buy, and not buried deep in a 50 page EULA, then it is entirely reasonable to assume that Apple can afford to keep a 5MB file available for streaming forever, or until Apple closes down its streaming services.
> With digital you're hoping the 'store' keeps it in storage for you in perpetuity so you can redownload/stream it.
Not necessarily. What if the store didn't have to do that?
You'd pay for it what you paid for it. Did the "Buy" button specify that you were buying the movie or did it say you were simply leasing the film and that it can be removed at any time due to licensing agreement over which you (as the buyer) had no control over?
I think it should specifically say for how long you are renting it. They knew already when the contract would expire, why renting the movie didn't say "rent for 7 years" (or whatever the timeframe was)
That would constitute fraud IMHO. You cannot simply make it appear as though customers bought something, when the verb buy has a very specific and crystal-clear meaning.
Do you mean what i am suggesting is fraud? Because when Sony entered the agreement for the movies, you can definitely bet they knew how long it was going to last, and the button I am confident it said "buy" (i don't have a PlayStation).
I definitely consider it fraud, but i am a normal consumer.
On a similar scale, if I am paying 35% more for the plus on music, I expect the same for movies around $15 or up to $18.
Terminator 2 is currently $8 for a bluray on amazon. $10 for a DVD. This is reasonably a forever version.
DVD perhaps yes, until the disc degrades.
BluRay no, because your player's keys can be revoked when you pop in a new disc.
DVD perhaps yes, until the disc degrades.
Which is the same constraint as pretty much any other physical item one might purchase. "reasonably a forever" is a reasonable description.
I know it's not the point you're making but I would enjoy a post-apocalyptic post-AI movie where they pass on the lesson of the dangers of AI through an oral recounting or stage production of T2.
Ok, how long do you have to rip & copy the content as you desire? It is still reasonably a forever version. Before you bring up laws around keys, first consider that jaywalking in front of your house is illegal too. Again, it is reasonably a forever version.
jaywalking in front of your house is illegal
In most parts of the world it’s not illegal. That’s a seriously draconian law.
Crossing the street in a residential neighborhood is legal in almost all of the world and increasingly legal in the US as well. Many major cities started with non-enforcement and some are rolling back jaywalking laws entirely.
Why even bother with all those hoops. Just download.
Oh, I was adding a pertinent point of discussion in a discussion board. It is fun. I suggest you try it.
Snarky shit aside...
Why should I pay to be treated as a criminal, when pirating is better in every way and costs nothing?
There is no option of "Pay for digital copy of show that permits format/time shifting and backup for as long as I want, with no DRM". Like GOG. Doesn't exist in the pay realm.
It seems like you're just adding more and more qualifiers until you can finally justify piracy to yourself. You can reasonably do what you want if you buy the disc. There's a good chance that's how the people you're downloading from did it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah thats also how I do it.
I have a cool 16 DVD/Bluray ripping rig. Even have scripts that convert ripped images into MKV's with all audio and subtitles, art, etc. Uploads into my Jellyfin.
And yes, I do buy VHS, DVDs, and Blurays. I have probably 3000 movies in physical format, and 10000 audio CDs. I also rip old VHS, which you usually cant find any torrents of. Again, I specialize in rare stuff you cant buy retail or find.
There's also illegal shows, like the old WKRP in Cincinnati. They licensed for TV only multiple songs. Pink Floyd and other artists refuse to license now. Nobody can legally sell them, even if you have the money. Piracy is the only way for the complete show.
There's also a lot more shows that languished in licening hell for decades, or theyre still unobtainable at any price. Some you can get redacted versions, but the originals are illegal no matter what. And as an (well, illegal, but I DGAF) archivist, having shows intentionally lost due to pervasive greed is just... more wrong.
The Wonder Years - finally published in 2021, LOTS of cuts made
China Beach - published in 2013 after clearing hundreds of songs. 17 segments were cut due to licensing fuckery
Northern Exposure - multiple songs redacted on republishing
Pee-wee's Playhouse - multiple songs redacted on republishing
Beavis and Butt-Head - DVD was a hackjob with dozens of songs changed/parodied.
Cold Case - too much licensed content, cant republish
Third Watch - too much licensed content, cant republish
The Drew Carey Show - massive music rights issues, cant republish
Malcolm in the Middle - massive music rights issues, cant republish
Little Monsters (1989) - massive music rights issues, cant republish
Heavy Metal (1981) - tons of rights issues, cant republish
Kids Incorporated / Class of 1999 2 - tons of rights issues, cant republish
I'd like to add Daria to that list. Most of the music has rights issuses and the DVD release has had it all replaced with generic 90s music-like filler.
This.
Once you're into not-currently-selling stuff, as in some original cuts for example, piracy is the only way possible and is in every way better on top of that. It works. And it does not preclude you from paying original creators. Want to send some btc to someone? Want to help with a road trip? Want to help shooting the next season of whatever? Want to fund it outright? No problem.
> BluRay no, because your player's keys can be revoked when you pop in a new disc
Wait what? How? How is that possibly legal?
Key revocation applies to releases published after the revocation date. Old media should continue playing with a compromised device key.
That wasn't what was implied then. If old media continues playing then it's still "forever".
This was planned for DVDs too, but they failed miserably.
In any other case: use MakeMKV
I would pay what I used to pay for DVDs.
I would pay zero. I would just use torrents.
Right now, I won't pay a fucking cent.
I'll pirate it off of Usenet or Torrents.
I get a strictly better experience if I pirate. Whereas I'm treated like a criminal and sold a much worse experience if I pay.
So, fuck paying. I'm not going to pay for abuse.