It ends with "The platforms need you far more than you need them". And I think this is the misconception. No, they don't. The amount of people who will sign this, is a fraction of a fraction of a "platform"'s users. They will not care if they lose 50,000 users out of 2 Billion. A drop in the ocean. Not the target audience anyway.
And that is the real shame. Because I don't want to have to give my face or do age verification but I know when the time comes, and If I need to use a service now, I will give them whatever they want to get past the hurdle and use the service. It sucks, but I don't think a petition will help. Unless of course you get the 50 million to sign the petition AND stick to it.
You are correct that your data isn't particularly impactful for these platforms - but you're also overestimating the value that many of these services have. A fair few of them have competitors with better features and privacy offerings so the only reason you need them is purely for the network effect of everyone else using them.
And increasingly, everyone isn’t using them, even if they’re on them.
I’m on Insta and WhatsApp and I use them a few times per year. I’m on Messenger and have seen a dramatic dropoff in messages. I’m on FB frequently and notice only a small fraction of my friends bother anymore and it’s become an interest platform to make up the lack, so I’m trending toward less time there. I’m on Twitter/X but check in maybe once a month.
I may not be a typical user, but I’m probably not unique either.
Add to that, FB is no longer people...it's viewing entertainment...and I turn it off a bunch.
Threads is the new time sink and a lot of times I open it and close it shortly thereafter because it's all the same...someone with a 20 part diatribe, someone repeating the news, someone telling you to be outraged, engagement bait.
They have plateaued on number of users/engagement. They are instead increasing ad impressions and jacking up the prices of ads. (source: https://investor.atmeta.com/investor-news/press-release-deta...)
Revenue is up 33% year over year. Not sure how that is sustainable.
I visit my facebook once a year and always regret it
At this point I purely use it to log in on my birthday to pass pleasantries with relatives that don't use any other platform and then turn it off again for a year.
I was one of the earliest on FB. It's mostly an address book for me now. I'm sad sooooo many acquaintances and relatives are there, and yes, it would be a lot of effort to get their contact info or get them to use other messaging platform (but I've started doing that).
For 15+ years, I've thought long and hard countless times about what could sustainably replace social media platforms that do not serve us well. I know a paid app is not super likely to succeed, although WhatsApp did use to cost a dollar! It seems like a nonprofit wouldn't be that great, and so I wonder about a mission-driven public benefit corporation (not to be confused with a B corp, though it could be one of those too). Of course it has to be cool or no one would use it. Not a fuddy duddy wannabe social network. Anyway, to sustain itself, would ads or paid offerings (that don't harvest personal data) be successful?
Happy to discuss with anyone interested!
I'm very much like you. There are several apps that I use to communicate with a handful (or less) of people in the world. I see people on travel sites saying "Just use WhatsApp" and I'm more or less, yes it's installed on my phone and I use it with a couple people but it's certainly not something that most people I know use.
Probably something of a demographic (geography/age) thing.
WhatsApp is very much a geography thing; it's pretty ubiquitous in many countries but relatively unknown in the US.
I think that's probably true although I've had even US people argue with me that "everyone they know" uses WhatsApp. I do think it's the case that SMS became basically free in the US sooner than other places and therefore it became the default in the US whatever encryption or other details.
No, I don't think you're unique at all. I think this all tracks and applies to more and more of the general population.
These mainstream services no longer provide what people signed up for: life updates, pictures of kids and dogs, etc. These value-add posts are becoming less frequent because of/and are being replaced by streams of posts from people _you should follow_ or content they're pretty sure will rile you up about ... whatever. Generally, the people who are still active and whose posts slip through (because it's their only outlet) are effectively monkeys slinging shit (e.g. uncles posting AI slop memes about Barack Obama's suits).
It seems like younger generations have moved on to more silo'd experiences. I don't use TikTok but it's my understanding that it's more about connecting with people who share common interests (more akin to HN or Reddit) and not as much about connecting with your high school Spanish teacher who has gone full MAGA and whose posts you don't care to see and/or who you don't want seeing your posts and trolling you in the comments. This same cohort also seems to be spending much more time in private group chats and, for the most part, the platform doesn't seem to matter; it's just a message broker.
Well, kinda yes, but not really.
Concept of SNS changed from “audience of my friends and acquaintances” to “audience of potentially anyone in the world” around 2017ish, when every feed became algo-feed. And users like it, because it is akin to “endless Reddit scrolling”, but more tailored to things you might find interesting. And posters like it too, because of potential reach and attention.
Instagram Reels has 2B+ monthly users. Even if we say 50% are bots, not active and etc., that’s still roughly 1B users. It really tracks if you stand up on a busy subway train, almost in any city, and just look around. You’ll see full screens of TikTok, IG, YouTube shorts. The younger generation’s “private group chats” aren’t some sort of replacement to endless scrolling. A good chunk of messages are links to posts in one of those platforms.
If there is a substitute and I am not time constrained 100% i'm switching. But I've been in a situation already where a platform I'm using required me to face-up. I can't even remember which to be honest but I had no alternative or recourse to refuse. In addition, in the UK company directors are legaly required to face-up to Companies House and confirm their identity, so they have my face too. Ah, and so is every single CCTV camera around London. I don't know how to fight this particular battle.
Move from London, you have all of Europe to... nevermind.
Your pessimism is warranted. But there are places that are more welcoming still.
The competitors will be also regulated. It’s a slippery slope.
Just because the network effect is why you need them doesn’t make that need go away.
It represents an increase in cost to use the service. Most such services have a wealth of competitors for your time and attention.
"Need" is an extremely strong word that is not appropriate for many Internet services where facial recognition is being pushed for.
I don't disagree. I still use facebook once a year for contact with relatives but if the only thing keeping you is the network effect then hopefully people will migrate off - maybe you can help them do so!
I think this kind of comment where you share the sentiment that you will ultimately admit defeat emboldens the factions that are hoping for people to be like you. I also think these kinds of comments may also bring doubt to people considering resisting these kinds of concessions.
In other words I think the people pushing these kinds of "identification" methods would love you for spreading their silent message of this being unavoidable knowingly or unknowingly.
Even if what you say is correct let's not make it easier for people wanting to enshittify the future, yeah?
Are you really advocating for suppressing rational assessments for the likelihood of success because you think the analysis is too discouraging?
If you already agree the resistance will ultimately lead nowhere, why not focus that energy on something with a better chance of success? Best guess would be partnering with someone like the EFF for a solution through lobbying And the courts.
Cynicism isn't knowledge. Cynicism isn't an assessment.
Cynicism is an assumption. Cynicism is emotional armor because the thought of caring again and the risk of it not panning out is more painful than not caring at all.
The only rational aspect of cynicism is that it makes you feel better. It isn't relevant about one's actual ability to change the world.
If efforts in the past didn't work to affect political change? Change what you do. Change your tactics. Clearly many groups - including ones with little-to-no-money - can and do succeed to influence policy on a regular basis.
The worst thing you can do is to convince others not to do anything about it. And right after that is to do nothing about it yourself.
Is it all that rational?
If everyone thinks so, then surely yes, but if people realize, that change starts in the small and they can be part of the change, perhaps at some personal cost, but that it might be worth it, then suddenly change is possible.
How have the EFF and the courts worked so far? We do need an EFF, but they're clearly not all that effective. And the courts just won't do anything unless someone does something illegal.
I just wanted to tell you that I wholeheartedly agree with your statement and that you shouldn’t be discouraged by some of the nay-sayers in the replies. I feel that HN has many users who are techno-optimist, but are very pessimistic of the role of individuals and the possibilities of the society overall.
Even in the replies someone tries to appeal to some ideal of „rationalism“ which is nothing but defeatism to the status quo. They see any kind of passion, emotion or values as „irrational“ and categorically as something lesser.
But what is reason without values? Logic without axioms? Just treading in the trivial waters.
They won’t be emboldened by this comment, they will be emboldened when their internal data shows they aren’t losing users at a rate high enough to change their behavior.
Which will be partly because of this comment.
There is a term for what you describe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
If I have no choice, and no alternative, what can I do? I will never use an OS that require it on the OS level, and nobody can mandate it, not to a Linux user as myself - there will always be "another distro". But as a company director I have a legal requirement to verify my identity with my face. That's one. Every CCTV camera I pass by London, I assume is likely to have some soft of potential face recognition. Every transfer type transaction I do with my bank app requires me to face-up. So fine, I will skip Facebook or Instagram, but where will I get my cat-video dopamine fix?
I don't see myself as admitting defeat here. I'm choosing my battles. The gov here will drive this through as we're stuck with them until 2029. I'm considering (with a heavy heart) to leave the UK and this is just one nail in a coffin full of nails.
Where else to go? AFAIK most developed countries are increasing surveillance efforts. I’m not aware of many that aren’t involved in pushing some kind of anti-E2EE or facial recognition at airports or VPN regulation or most any other issue de jour.
Regardless, no matter where you are (besides China or Russia) you’re at least partially subject to USA jurisdiction as demonstrated by their Executive Order 14203 which implemented asset freezes and travel bans on ICC officials, judges, and prosecutors — effectively unilaterally “de-banking” EU bureaucrats over the objections of the EU.
https://courthousenews.com/cut-off-by-their-banks-and-even-i...
Leaving is unfortunately kind of the only option, but I worry other countries are just going to follow this process too.
Most people use social media such as discord or whatsapp in order to make social activities and communities simple with the majority of their friends. A majority of people do not give a shit about integrity. The only group I have ever managed to convince and actually use Signal for messaging out of all my groups of friends and peers is the Computer Science Dept PhD students.
For most people, it's not realistic to give up their social bonds, they are too far in. If you are hoping for some revolution or change in this aspect is way too late. You can have small fringe groups engaging in this, but at the end of the day you are overestimating how many people actually give a shit.
Smart and driven people wasting time on ideas that have been tested time and time through to be ineffective is not net good for society.
I find it strange for these people to accept such a defeatist attitude because I'm the opposite.
I mean I will just not use the service and I'll seek out alternatives that are open source or create my own. I'll do anything possible until I'm the last one standing if that's what it comes down too.
I tried to sign up to Telnyx and they had the same crap from an unreliable data-breach and being-litigated persona identifier. I passed on that.
I've already been going down this road as I've abandoned Google and some of the big cloud providers in favor of smaller companies who aren't pushing these policies.
It isn't hard to click cancel. It's just people favor convenience over their own freedom because they have never experienced not having freedom like our founder's did 250 years ago. The problem is once freedom is gone, getting it back requires blood spilled and political reforms and revolutions based on what history teaches us.
The British crown never gave away the control, it is just obfuscated through the British-owned offshore financial networks. The Epstein files make this abundantly clear.
We are currently ruled by the third generation of post-WW2 five eyes nepo kids, with all problems this entails. The feel-good narrative about US was spun by Hollywood, but the old money of British aristocracy never went away. All the "self-made billionaires" who receive a Lordship title from the King just so the commoners work even more because they think they have a fair shot.
If someone like Ghislaine Maxwell applies for a visa in their colony USA, she receives a vanity social security number "Leet Babe" (1337 84883).
I think the kind of comment you're making here is wishful thinking. Raging into the void and then getting mad when everyone doesn't do the same is not an effective way to force change. It's just an effective way to make you feel good.
Bitter truth :(
A better idea would be to regulate their corporate behavior and outlaw their current system of corporate governance. It's insane that we keep passing off these companies with a majority shareholder on the board and in the C-suite as capable of being rational actors in the market. They aren't, and can't be made to be. You have to pass laws and enforce them.
You don't need 50 million people to do that.
and If I need to use a service now, I will give them whatever they want to get past the hurdle and use the service.
Need or want? We need very few of the services looking for our government ID. Also, this should not be the only way of pushing back. We can support the EFF and politicians who are actively fighting against this or candidates who vow to. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2026/03/rep-finke-was-right-ag...
They arguably don't need any users as long as they can maintain the delusion of being important and especially present that delusion to politicians.
s/politicians/the stock market/, yes.
> I will give them whatever they want to get past the hurdle and use the service.
Why? Why not just hold firm to your principles and sacrifice convenience for your personal sovereignty. When you don't, you make the situation worse for everyone else as well by normalizing this bullshit.
It has never been about those platforms though. I could not care less if CIAbook or Instaspam or any of these other anti-social slop sites exist.
They want to force all operating systems to require age sniffing. That's the main angle right now. I am curiously watching how systemd will add more implementation details to this; probably as a first step only for commercial linux distributions.