Fundamental flaws/oversights in the internet's design led to centralization, notably zero protections against malicious actors, bots, and botnets.
Cloudflare and co offer some of the only real solutions to that.
If you snap your fingers and Cloudflare disappears, you aren't left with a decentralized wonderland but rather the status quo where $5 of booter time can take most websites offline for the lulz, and all of your human users have to compete with infinite automated AI traffic (basically an amplification attack every time someone prompts an agent and it does a web search).
So, there's a third option where you like Cloudflare's services as a solution to flaws in the internet that led to the need for these services.
Then I move my stuff somewhere else? I've been writing HTML since 1993. I think I've used literally hundreds of hosts at this point.
I had access to an Enterprise license in my last job, which was my introduction to Cloudflare — something like 7 years ago — and I just kind of fell in love with the DX and their offerings. It's only improved since then. Like, Cloudflare Workers is actually fucking insane. It's insane how good it is for free. It has a secret vault, dude, for free — with API and CLI. It has cron jobs. You can just assign domains to sites from your DNS zones. It's got blue/green deployments built in. I don't have to SSH into anything. It's just there and it works.
Now everything I do there is free, even for my contract projects, and I can't believe it's free. I actually keep expecting an enshittification phase to begin but it just doesn't ever begin. When it does, I'll bail — same as it ever was. It would take a lot, though.
I like how I can slap up a free Turnstile on my projects in two minutes and not have to worry about endless comment spam and user registration spam. Yes, I understand there's problems with Cloudflare, but there's also a lot of problems out there in the wild west of an open internet.
Ah! The same turnstile that was supposed to provide users with a more private reCaptcha alternative and ended up fingerprinting users via WebGL to prevent spam.
You might at least try to engage in good faith, or fake it enough to pass benefit of the doubt. I don't like the impact Cloudflare has had on the open internet, but GP was presenting their view, and you clearly misrepresented it.
- The workers platform is quite pleasant to work with compared to competitors.
- Globally deploying edge workers which have access to their many services (D1, R2, DO, etc)
- Having the ability to assemble globally distributed workers using bindings is dead simple
- Their CI pipeline, while limited, is easy to setup and run and keeps improving
- Their pricing is extremely competitive
For your second:
- That's my biggest conflict with using any service (Cloudflare, AWS, Azure, etc). Don't have a good answer with what to do about it considering for many projects I don't have the time/energy to fully self host everything.
One thing is hosting, which obviously comes with centralizing risks but a different one is just deciding to add a layer of "protection" in front of every website so that as much traffic as possible goes through one single company.
the dx is wonderful if you give claude code your global api key. and the price is amazing. you can deploy complex web apps for free. i love vite and astro which is built on vite. i ran both on cloudflare before they were bought by them. i'm happy. at least they weren't bough by adobe.
To be clear people are mad about that because large portions of the legitimate internet go dark when football is on because they're running on a virtual server that happens to share an IP with another virtual server which is hosting pirated football.
You and I have no idea how often perfectly legal things we rely enjoy or rely on would go offline during football matches because it doesn't happen to us.
I don't think you get it. They block Cloudfare IPs so services using Cloudfare become unreachable. I don't live in Spain anymore, but I have friends that can't access their university website while a soccer match is ongoing.
This shows the risks of centralizing internet access
My issue with Cloudflare is how they enshittify all the open-source & closed-soure utilities they maintain. They vibe code it all now. It's crap. I'm sad Vite/Vue/whatever will go the way of that. Oh well, there's always Svelte. For now.
IMHO Cloudflare ensures decentralization of the Internet: It provides an alternative to AWS, Azure, and GCE which gives your little personal selfhosting box or small VPS the same level of protection the big providers have. And generally, anything you have either hosted on or proxied by Cloudflare, can be pretty trivially moved to another provider. Whereas things built on top of AWS, Azure, and GCE services tend to be pretty stuck there.
Cloudflare has some big misses in it's history, like deciding to takedown a social media site for sex workers while defending a decision to provide services to Nazis at length, but in comparison to the alternatives it makes more decentralization practical than might be otherwise.
Have you ever seen a us-east-1 outage? Or when Exchange Online fails... weekly or so? There's a lot of huge clouds that are load-bearing for the Internet. Cloudflare is the one you can at least circumvent easily.
That's not true. Read about all the drama happening in Spain when an entity (the soccer league) decides to block all the Cloudfare IPs. You are stuck with no access to most websites behind Cloudfare, and that's a lot of them
Fundamental flaws/oversights in the internet's design led to centralization, notably zero protections against malicious actors, bots, and botnets.
Cloudflare and co offer some of the only real solutions to that.
If you snap your fingers and Cloudflare disappears, you aren't left with a decentralized wonderland but rather the status quo where $5 of booter time can take most websites offline for the lulz, and all of your human users have to compete with infinite automated AI traffic (basically an amplification attack every time someone prompts an agent and it does a web search).
So, there's a third option where you like Cloudflare's services as a solution to flaws in the internet that led to the need for these services.
And then when Cloudfare decides to start exploiting all the data they have and all the services they provide for their own benefit then what
Then I move my stuff somewhere else? I've been writing HTML since 1993. I think I've used literally hundreds of hosts at this point.
I had access to an Enterprise license in my last job, which was my introduction to Cloudflare — something like 7 years ago — and I just kind of fell in love with the DX and their offerings. It's only improved since then. Like, Cloudflare Workers is actually fucking insane. It's insane how good it is for free. It has a secret vault, dude, for free — with API and CLI. It has cron jobs. You can just assign domains to sites from your DNS zones. It's got blue/green deployments built in. I don't have to SSH into anything. It's just there and it works.
Now everything I do there is free, even for my contract projects, and I can't believe it's free. I actually keep expecting an enshittification phase to begin but it just doesn't ever begin. When it does, I'll bail — same as it ever was. It would take a lot, though.
I'm responding to your non sequitur. Did you already abandon it?
I like how I can slap up a free Turnstile on my projects in two minutes and not have to worry about endless comment spam and user registration spam. Yes, I understand there's problems with Cloudflare, but there's also a lot of problems out there in the wild west of an open internet.
Ah! The same turnstile that was supposed to provide users with a more private reCaptcha alternative and ended up fingerprinting users via WebGL to prevent spam.
[flagged]
Someone doesn't remember using forums before captchas were invented...
You might at least try to engage in good faith, or fake it enough to pass benefit of the doubt. I don't like the impact Cloudflare has had on the open internet, but GP was presenting their view, and you clearly misrepresented it.
Or users being able to access the forum. Why not just host it on localhost and call it a day.
For your first question:
- The workers platform is quite pleasant to work with compared to competitors. - Globally deploying edge workers which have access to their many services (D1, R2, DO, etc) - Having the ability to assemble globally distributed workers using bindings is dead simple - Their CI pipeline, while limited, is easy to setup and run and keeps improving - Their pricing is extremely competitive
For your second:
- That's my biggest conflict with using any service (Cloudflare, AWS, Azure, etc). Don't have a good answer with what to do about it considering for many projects I don't have the time/energy to fully self host everything.
One thing is hosting, which obviously comes with centralizing risks but a different one is just deciding to add a layer of "protection" in front of every website so that as much traffic as possible goes through one single company.
I love how you put protection in quotes like Cloudflare is some snake oil salesman and not a very good product.
the dx is wonderful if you give claude code your global api key. and the price is amazing. you can deploy complex web apps for free. i love vite and astro which is built on vite. i ran both on cloudflare before they were bought by them. i'm happy. at least they weren't bough by adobe.
>Do you like the centralization of the internet?
Absolutely, makes blocking stuff so much easier!
Yeah, Spanish la Liga is so happy about Cloudfare
Wait, so this is why you're mad a Cloudflare? Because, you can't watch your pirated football game?
To be clear people are mad about that because large portions of the legitimate internet go dark when football is on because they're running on a virtual server that happens to share an IP with another virtual server which is hosting pirated football.
You and I have no idea how often perfectly legal things we rely enjoy or rely on would go offline during football matches because it doesn't happen to us.
I don't think you get it. They block Cloudfare IPs so services using Cloudfare become unreachable. I don't live in Spain anymore, but I have friends that can't access their university website while a soccer match is ongoing.
This shows the risks of centralizing internet access
My issue with Cloudflare is how they enshittify all the open-source & closed-soure utilities they maintain. They vibe code it all now. It's crap. I'm sad Vite/Vue/whatever will go the way of that. Oh well, there's always Svelte. For now.
Vercel hired the Svelte team so I'm not too sure there's much of a difference
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29189144
IMHO Cloudflare ensures decentralization of the Internet: It provides an alternative to AWS, Azure, and GCE which gives your little personal selfhosting box or small VPS the same level of protection the big providers have. And generally, anything you have either hosted on or proxied by Cloudflare, can be pretty trivially moved to another provider. Whereas things built on top of AWS, Azure, and GCE services tend to be pretty stuck there.
Cloudflare has some big misses in it's history, like deciding to takedown a social media site for sex workers while defending a decision to provide services to Nazis at length, but in comparison to the alternatives it makes more decentralization practical than might be otherwise.
Cloudflare ensures decentralization
How by taking out 25% of the internet when they go down?
Have you ever seen a us-east-1 outage? Or when Exchange Online fails... weekly or so? There's a lot of huge clouds that are load-bearing for the Internet. Cloudflare is the one you can at least circumvent easily.
That's not true. Read about all the drama happening in Spain when an entity (the soccer league) decides to block all the Cloudfare IPs. You are stuck with no access to most websites behind Cloudfare, and that's a lot of them
How does this differ if Spain decided to block AWS IPs?
It doesn't, it's the same problem. But at least AWS provides more services. Cloudfare is just an extra layer to route traffic