> I want my life to have as little maintenance as possible
I honestly can't even relate to what that even means. I'm a programmer - my everyday job is all about changing the behavior of computer systems - local, remote, cloud, embedded, etc. Requirements change, scope fluctuates, problem space evolves - grows and shrinks, accretion is unavoidable. I need to routinely move between language stacks, different data types, formats, CLI and web tools, protocols, paradigms, OSS and proprietary apps.
That means I have to constantly adapt, my control plane has to keep up with the flux. Automation is key - you must develop a mentality for that - every little annoyance can be and shall be automated. That is an endless, non-stop transformation of my workflow - continuous maintenance of my tooling. But that is not some toilsome, reactive maintenance.
Thinking that you're a programmer that doesn't want to constantly build software for your own sake is a delusion - it's like a cook that hopes to turn on the stove only in the restaurant, but won't touch a knife at home.
Emacs is the cook's home kitchen. I'd say there are two kinds of maintenance: reactive (fixing breakage, keeping up with churn) versus generative (shaping tools to match your evolving understanding). Programmers instinctively dislike the first and should be drawn to the second. Emacs is almost uniquely suited to generative maintenance because the tool and the work share the same substrate.
I get your complaint about Emacs specifically, it's a common: "too much work to set up", which usually means: "I don't want to invest before I get value", which honestly is not wise, strategic thinking. Treating Emacs as the universal tool for minimizing total maintenance burden over a career, over a lifetime is.
I think your analogy breaks down because lots of people don't program "anything and everything". I can relate to being considered quite an expert in certain programming domains among my peers, but there being all kinds of potential programming around me that I just don't find interesting at all.
Programming is also so much broader than something like cooking. It would be like saying that "you make your living manipulating matter, how could you not want to manipulate all that other matter?" to a chef. Their cooking doesn't necessarily make them want to mend clothes, remodel houses, devise new pharmaceuticals, etc.
Yeah, sure analogies are... well... some made up shit we use, because we have imagination. And the imagination can take you for a spin.
I just disagree with why Emacs heavy users are often "blamed" to be obsessed with their tools "needlessly". What does it even mean to desire "as little maintenance as possible"? Okay, let's say I don't use Emacs (which is like I dunno over 90% of existing programmers in the world). What, I won't be writing bash scripts for my work? Okay, maybe I really hate Bash. Python then? Lua? Perl? What the hell are we even talking about? Of course, a programmer will do these things. Every programmer does. There's not a single case where a programmer doesn't tweak, re-tweak, personalize, improve, readjust their tooling, their scripts, browser extensions, the set of apps they use. Why is it Emacs and Vim considered a "perpetual maintenance", and I dunno, VSCode is "it just works™"? That's just not true. If I didn't use Emacs, I'd be inevitably re-inventing some workflow automation in some different way. Or what, bash-scripts ain't no software?
I'd like to make some points more explicit about my philosophy.
1. Yes, everything has a maintenance cost. Some choices have less. For instance, electing to choose Todoist instead of org-mode for my todo list means I no longer have to worry about syncing, merge conflicts, or whether the mobile app I've chosen fully conforms to the spec (well, whatever attempt at creating a spec existed at the time).
Of course, I am paying a very literal cost for convenience, and offloading maintenance to the Todoist engineers.
2. Emacs is a cool piece of software, and I am glad others have figured out how to leverage it, in such a way they have a configuration for life. I spent a lot of time marvelling over the set up that Protesilaos had for his writing [0]. It just wasn't for me.
3. For Emacs, if I want to use it like I wanted to, I have a couple of options. Install a package like Doom Emacs, which gives me most of what I want, with a whole lot of cruft I don't. And I have to keep that up-to-date, and worry about random community plugins breaking. Or figure out what set of plugins (after first picking a package manager) to incorporate. Or figure out the Elisp to do it myself. And my writing config would differ from my software engineering config.
No shade on the people who want to do this, but I just... don't? I can use Zed, or VSCode, and I'm 90% of the way there. Install (or configure) the Evil mode equivalent, and I'm happy.
4. One of the smartest engineers I worked with couldn't touch type until about 20 years into his career. The idea that everyone is ricing everything they do, is unrealistic.
[0]: https://protesilaos.com (purely for the emacs, not anything else there)
[1]: https://bphilip.uk/blog/2025-03-09-chase-bank-sync/
To summarize: your claim is that choosing to spend your energy on anything other than your emacs setup is a catastrophic failure in terms of ROI, a delusion, and a sort of dereliction of identity as a programmer. My rebuttal: dude, relax.
Are you even reading what I wrote? What's with the childish tone, someone dropped your keyboard rate when you're a kid or something? Emacs is a tool, not a religion. There are plenty of talented, accomplished programmers who can relate to what I said, and never even used Emacs. There's no "Emacs setup" for me, just like there's no "ricing my browser" - I do expect my web browser to work exactly the way I want (or at least as much I can get out of it) - that requires managing extensions, keybindings, extension settings, security options, disabling some annoying features, etc. It's an instrument, and requires the same type of "maintenance" and tweaking. Sure, it might not be as constant as for Emacs, but after all - web-browser is a targeted tool, Emacs is a universal one.
Whoah, whoah, whoah, you two, this is a happy post, not an angry post. Nothing to get wound up over! Part of the point is that you can both just go and do you!
We're not fighting, we're just "emotionally explaining things to one another". That's what my wife says to calm our dog, when he makes a concerned and scared face over a regular, non-confrontational conversation. Just to be clear, I'm not comparing you to our dog, I just thought it's a funny anecdote.
"Emacs is a tool, not a religion" yeah that's my point. You framed not investing in it as a delusion. We can all agree on the importance of tooling. I am responding to the tone of the sermon you wrote.
Like the cartoon character once said: "Yeah, sure, I mean, if you spend all day shuffling words around, you can make anything sound bad"... Re-read again what I wrote. Specifically about delusions. I can't believe I have to re-quote myself just to prove you my point about something you just made up in your head.
I'll re-quote it for you:
> Thinking that you're a programmer that doesn't want to constantly build software for your own sake is a delusion - it's like a cook that hopes to turn on the stove only in the restaurant, but won't touch a knife at home.
> Emacs is the cook's home kitchen.
The two sentences are adjacent. I read them as connected. If you meant them to be unrelated, I hope that this sheds light on our disagreement.
How often do you fish out a single word in a paragraph that has no semantic, emotional meaning to you personally and automatically flip the entire book, just because of one word?
What I meant is that viewing Emacs merely as a means to achieve a singular goal and to extract specific value (e.g. "I've heard Magit is nice") is shortsighted - approaching it as a strategic, long-term investment yields far greater returns. I'm not preaching for absolutely every programmer to use it.
Come on, now tell me how I think of everyone who doesn't approve my web-browser tweaking habits as "catastrophic failures"...
Hmm, not quite an apology, but sort of a tacit acknowledgement that what you wrote wasn’t quite what you meant. Good enough for me.
You keep doubling down on your own perverted reality you composed out of thin air and somehow I have to apologize? Can you be I dunno, less emotional and more substantive? There's no controversy in what I wrote - it is pretty simple and straightforward:
Programmers write programs. That's the definition of the job. Any personal tweaks - scripts, snippets, extensions, packages, configs (for VSCode, IntelliJ, Vim and yes Emacs too) are also programs. Saying: "I don't want to maintain my programs" sounds to me like saying: "I don't want to be a programmer". It doesn't matter what I use - Emacs, Sublime or Macromedia Dreamweaver - configuring and maintaining it is not "kind of a job", "part of my job", or "someone else's job". That is my job as a programmer. Period. End of discussion.
Why the fuck you keep pouring your own made up shit from one pitcher into another, thinking it's about to turn into gold, is beyond me. And somehow I'm the dude that should "relax". Well, sure, let me then apologize for my inability to explain to you something that a six year old would get off the bat.
Now allow me to explain to you kindly, why you're fucking wrong here. You probably have no idea how difficult it is to write anything meaningful in English. Especially these days. For someone for whom English is not a second or even a third language, it can be an enormously hellacious ordeal. I take pride in my English. I think it's quite possible I would never write so colorfully in any other of the three languages I have. For me, each paragraph has meaning, has voice, its own character. It takes time to write. It takes patience, humility, imagination. Machines can do it already, but their language still lacks something. Something ephemeral. Something that would make us watch for two hours, humans doing crazy acrobatics of Cirque du Soleil. I wonder how long would we watch robots doing the same? Well, who knows, maybe we'd be watching robots dancing for two hours. LLMs are getting better with languages too. Which makes it more difficult to write. Properly structured text gets blamed for being generated. Sometimes I deliberately don't fix mistakes, even though it makes my eye twitch. Darn, I'm so pissed I can't use em-dash anymore, goddammit.
I don't owe you an explanation why I do it, why write anything at all. Why HN. I'll say it anyway. I do it because I still recognize people here. Living, dreaming, learning, fighting, hating, daring, loving people. I don't get paid for it, I don't seek recognition, I am not trying to build a name. I share my opinions because nothing is more important for our species than storytelling. And we need to share stories, listen to them, re-live them, learn from them. That's why many of us would go to watch Nolan's rendition of a 2700-year-old story. Even if we don't like the movie already.
And then someone like you comes, shits all over your charming writing, compelled to do it just because they see a word they don't like. Well, honestly, fuck you. Yeah, not nice, but I'd rather be kind and tell you the truth. You wouldn't be saying the shit you replied to me with to my face. Not because I have muscles, or am intimidating, or weak and miserable, no. But because you're definitely not a jerk, or an idiot. I wouldn't have to spend hours wasting on your ass for no good fucking reason. Seriously, I am a solo father with two kids, it's fucking 1:30AM and I'm having to deal with this shit, because writing for me is still fucking hard. English is beautiful, but hard. Come on, kid, think sometimes. For the sake of fellow humans.
> Seriously, I am a solo father with two kids, it's fucking 1:30AM and I'm having to deal with this shit
How old are your kids? I ask because unless they're teens or older they need a well-rested dad.
The very definition of "LAATTIG".