Weighing up a Neo vs Framework 12 for my kids. The Neo is nicer, but I'll probably get the Framework even though it's more expensive. Apple products seem to have a fixed shelf life; a certain number of years of support and then the machine is slowly incompatible with apps that have since moved on to newer versions of macOS. Meanwhile Framework supports Linux and is still providing hardware/software upgrade paths for their old machines.
Just my personal perspective, every Apple laptop I've ever owned has lasted 10+ years. Their phones may have some planned obsolescence, but I don't find that to be the case at all with their computers.
I still use a 2012 MacBook Air 11” for running Zoom calls.
It’s stuck in Catalina, but I still get updates.
Most apps run fine on it.
Apple kit lasts a long time.
I use a 2012 Samsung ultrabook with Arch for light coding, web and limited image editing sometimes while traveling; while fairly beat up, recently I replaced the battery in it for 10 bucks in 20 minutes; it was also probably like a fifth of the price. And with Linux you don't have to worry about a specific kit lasting a long time - it just runs anyway.
Cool. I wasn’t trying to posture. I was just mentioning my own experience.
My experience, for the last 40 years, has been people automatically attacking me, for using Apple kit. I think that Linux folks had the same, for a while, but these days, it’s a lot more accepted.
People just blindly hate Apple, and drop all semblance of reason, when considering the platform (and people who program for it).
In my experience their phones last far longer than Androids. Only in the last few years Samsung and Pixel have switched to at least 7 years (now it's the question of whether the hardware will suffice).
Until it broke, I was still using my 2018 iPad just last year.
My primary device is still my 2018 iPad Pro. I have lots to choose from, but it’s perfect.
Old intel macbook pros definitely didn't last 10+ years, the overheating problems really reduced their lifetime.
I have an Intel MacBook Pro from 2013. It’s running Linux and my kids now use it as a SNES emulator.
My personal perspective: 2 out of 3 MacBook Pro, I worked with, had expanding batteries after about 5 years. Replacement was a big hassle and the new no-name batteries are nowhere near as good as the original ones.
I sure wish it was as easy as a battery replacement on a Framework laptop (with an original part).
I know the Neo has easier battery replacement (not glued in), but still it has an iFixit rating of 6/10 whereas the Framework 12 has a 10/10.
I think this is less true than it used to be? I ran my MBP2013 into the ground after 10+ years, but my circa 2018 imac retina is stuck on pre-Catalina, installing which requires opencore patcher anyway. Hardware is fine, but it's increasingly less useful as a daily driver on account of software.
You're absolutely right; the Apple Silicon transition really lowered the years of support of their later Intel machines. The same thing happened with the G5 machines, and the last Motorola 68000 Macintoshes in the early 90s.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/07/some-macs-are-gettin...
As someone who keeps apple laptops for 7 or so years but also has encountered numerous macbook pro meltdowns both applecare covered and not, 10+ is a crazy number and you'll probably need to provide some proof for that to be reasonable.
Why is 10+ unreasonable?
The M1 was sold right up until last year in new devices so it presumably has another decade of support left - that'll be a 15 year span! It certainly wouldn't make sense to declare M1 devices trash while supporting the Neo with almost directly equivalent performance.
The M5 is so much more powerful it may still be useful throughout the 2040s.
Anecdotally, my path was 2010 macbook pro -> 2015 macbook pro -> 2021 M1, with each device lasting about 10 years, and keeping 2 in flight at once. The 2015 one is showing it's age, and is likely to be replaced this year or next. Running linux on it isn't an option due to all the nonsense involved in suspend/sleep and the effect it has on battery life.
I also have a 2007 Intel mac with firewire that I use for some audio stuff that's still going strong with just an SSD swap.
My 2015 MacBook Air, purchased new in 2017, was already practically dead by 2021.
How
I still use my 2015 macbook air (purchased in 2015) as a secondary computer. I installed linux on it last year as it was not getting software updates anymore.
Other than one of the USB ports being a bit flaky it works perfectly fine.
> every Apple laptop I've ever owned has lasted 10+ years
.. as long as you avoided the emoji keyboard era, or never used an emoji keyboard laptop outdoors or even with your windo open :)
I have laptops much older than the ~2018 that work perfectly. But not only the 2018's keyboard broke, but to add insult to the injury they used a display cable that was too short in that generation and that broke too.
That is Cook's legacy :)
Tahoe (in particular Liquid Glass) is the harbinger of bringing the iOS planned obsolescence to Mac. It has begun.
Linux on Mac Pro 5.1 from 2009 and 2017 MacBook Air, both working perfectly.
I prefer actually both to my corporate issue M4 one with MacOS.
I'm not a fan of the Mac UX, but the hardware seems pretty damn good and the lifespan extends with it.
If I'd have no limitations though I'd prefer the Framework, but not very clearly.
There are ways to patch around arbitrary "unsupported" status. What tends to reduce the real support time is the hardware itself (e.g. non-Metal supporting GPUs). However, M series SoC are likely to have support for a very long time. It's not like the Intel days when the underlying hardware was changing drastically from generation to generation with a multitude of CPUs and GPUs that all had to be supported in the OS. Apple has a dozen SoCs to support in Mac OS and that's it.
As such, if you buy a M5 MacBook Air today you are very likely to get software support that lasts until the laptop is physically falling apart.
Framework as a company is not old enough to even hit the limits of Apple's macOS support: around seven years.
The question is not as much shelf life, as whether you want your kids to be builders or consumers.
You can put Linux on Macbooks, you can build on macOS.
You cannot run Linux on the macbook neo at the time of writing, unless you mean in a VM, and the processor + memory are barely enough to reasonably manage that. Even a mid-sized rust project, or a nixos build, would OOM for a VM.
Environments foster certain behaviors, even restrictions foster certain behaviors, sometimes the opposite of what you try to restrict. There are no right answers :)