Can’t think properly seems to be the real issue. That’s one of the reasons that SE domain is mostly in ruin. AI won’t help, only to delay a bigger mess.
Ever since the standard office setup went from offices or cubicles to bullpens and hot desks there is less and less time to think, and all of that is a management decision to ship things as fast as possible
Grade inflation and schools passing kids who should fail to game metrics and keep collecting student loans is a problem. I wouldnt consider hiring anybody from my alma mater who didnt score a sandard deviation or higher on the tests.
Unis imo are irrelvant in the context of software production. Id take someone who didnt finish or dropped out provided they can answer the question below.
The only thing worth asking people is: what have you produced? Within this one question is so much detail that any other artifact is moot.
>Unis imo are irrelvant in the context of software production. Id take someone who didnt finish or dropped out provided they can answer the question below.
What you'd take is irrelevant if the HR/recruiter doing the initial screening of resumes is looking at an oversupply of candidates with degrees.
Hiring is broken is many ways. Candidates without degrees are faring even worse now are the initial recruiter screening stage due to the poor market.
In my EU country, academic inflation is so bad due to free education and psyopping everyone to path of academia, that not having a MSc is basically a red flag to companies for getting a SW job as most candidates have one, which means you're expected to have one too if you want to get a job.
You don't need a 4.0 to graduate. And even if you got one, a lot of grades are composed of tests, not projects. You can just memorize your way through things if you were dedicated enough.
It's not really that hard to get a degree in engineering if your only goal is the degree itself.
That does seem to depend on countries and universities.
I do have to say I was appalled by some of the tests I had as an exchange student in the US (will not name the Uni in question but ranked around 60 in us rank). I remember a computer graphics test where a lot of questions were of the type "Which companies created the consortium maintaining the opengl specification?"... it was fully possible to obtain a passing grade just by rote memorization of facts. So I have no trouble believing that in the US it's possible in some unis to get a software engineering degree without understanding or critical thining
Yep. Way more than half of the people I interview can't even do a very basic FizzBuzz, even with guidance. Those are people with a degree, job experience and reference letters.
I graduated in 2006 in CS, and I had at least 5 or 6 software development classes. We also had electives, which included DB design and algorithms. Many of the higher-level classes allowed us to use any language of our choice as well.
I was self-taught since I was 15, so most of these classes were just review for me. I met lots of people that didn't know how to code as seniors (and never ended up getting a job in their field).
Most of the "Software Engineering" curricula I've seen is catered towards "getting a job as a programmer", and is mostly focused on languages, frameworks and outdated processes.
As an engineer in another discipline, there's no engineering there.
I would rank like this: Computer Science > Self Taught > Software Engineering.
The practice of software engineering is not what they teach in university.
I would say that today's graduates are IMO a bit better than a few decades ago but there are still many graduating who are just not good at writing computer software and don't really have the aptitude for that (or maybe the interest in getting good). That's what happens when the pipeline of people coming in are people who want to make money and the institution is mostly a degree factory.
I've seen it happen multiple times. Engineering degrees are no different than a vast majority of degrees in that if you are good at the read and regurgitate cycle, you can make it through. Not only can you make it through, but you can do it with a very respectable GPA. They come out with a large dictionary of keywords in their arsenal, but no idea how to put them into practice. Some are able to put it into practice and tie it all together. As they see practical examples of those keywords in the real world, it starts falling like dominoes, and at an accelerating rate. For some, it never goes much beyond keywords. The dominoes fall, but it is slow, and they stop falling for extended periods of time for them. Not many mature engineering organizations can tolerate that sort of progression rate. They usually don't last very long at any one place, until they find a company where they can blend into the background due to a combination of company culture, and low complexity systems being worked on.
OP should have put "engineers" in double quotes. Many software developers like to describe themselves as engineers although they don't have an actual engineering degree. A lot of software development resembles plumbing more than engineering, so most devs don't really need an engineering degree anyway, but they should be more honest about what they're actually doing and not try to elevate themselves with fancy titles.
You are, of course, right that the idea that someone could finish a serious engineering degree without being able to think is ridiculous.
I don't know but I can point at more than half of the people that I work with that can't think, and every time they try to, takes a whole group of people that can think to undo their mess, they all have degrees and I don't.
So what does that tell me?
Better yet, for about 30% having the LLM slop it would have yielded better outcomes, but having them slop something nets terrible slop. But at least I can reshape because even the LLM wont do something that stupid.
A degree is passing the test. Not all degree programs get into more advanced topics nor do they necessarily require that someone is able to work through how to solve a problem that they haven't seen before.
--
A lot of students (and developers out there too) are able to pass follow instructions and pass the test.
A smaller portion of them are able to divide up a task into the "this is what I need to do to accomplish that task".
Even fewer of them are able to work through the process of identifying the cause of a problem they haven't seen before and work through to figure out what the solution for that problem is.
--
... There are also a lot of people out there that aren't even able to fall into the first group without copying and pasting from another source. I've seen the "stack sort" at work https://xkcd.com/1185/https://gkoberger.github.io/stacksort/ professionally. People copying and pasting from Stack Overflow (back in the day) without understanding what they're writing.
Now, they do it with AI. Take the contents of the Jira description, paste it into some text box, submit the new code as a PR, take the feedback from the PR and paste it back into the box and repeat that a few times. I've seen PRs with "you're absolutely correct, here are the updates you requested" be sent back to me for review again.
This is not a new thing. AI didn't cause it, but AI is exacerbating the issue with professional programming by having the people who are not much more than some meat between one text box and another (yes, I'm being a bit harsh there) and the people who need instructions but don't understand design to be more "productive" while overwhelming the more senior developers.
... And this also becomes a set of permanent training wheels on developers who might be able to learn more if they had to do it. That applies at all levels. One needs to practice without training wheels and learn from mistakes to get better.
Mate, have you never had to deal with over-confident graduates who think they've got the complete answers, but, in reality, they only have a sliver of the whole picture in their minds?
Can’t think properly seems to be the real issue. That’s one of the reasons that SE domain is mostly in ruin. AI won’t help, only to delay a bigger mess.
Ever since the standard office setup went from offices or cubicles to bullpens and hot desks there is less and less time to think, and all of that is a management decision to ship things as fast as possible
How do you graduate your engineering degree without being able to think?
Even my colleagues who cheated their way through uni still needed critical thinking to do that and get away with cheating without being caught.
People might hate this but being a good cheat requires a lot of critical thinking.
Grade inflation and schools passing kids who should fail to game metrics and keep collecting student loans is a problem. I wouldnt consider hiring anybody from my alma mater who didnt score a sandard deviation or higher on the tests.
Unis imo are irrelvant in the context of software production. Id take someone who didnt finish or dropped out provided they can answer the question below.
The only thing worth asking people is: what have you produced? Within this one question is so much detail that any other artifact is moot.
>Unis imo are irrelvant in the context of software production. Id take someone who didnt finish or dropped out provided they can answer the question below.
What you'd take is irrelevant if the HR/recruiter doing the initial screening of resumes is looking at an oversupply of candidates with degrees.
Hiring is broken is many ways. Candidates without degrees are faring even worse now are the initial recruiter screening stage due to the poor market.
In my EU country, academic inflation is so bad due to free education and psyopping everyone to path of academia, that not having a MSc is basically a red flag to companies for getting a SW job as most candidates have one, which means you're expected to have one too if you want to get a job.
You don't need a 4.0 to graduate. And even if you got one, a lot of grades are composed of tests, not projects. You can just memorize your way through things if you were dedicated enough.
It's not really that hard to get a degree in engineering if your only goal is the degree itself.
That does seem to depend on countries and universities.
I do have to say I was appalled by some of the tests I had as an exchange student in the US (will not name the Uni in question but ranked around 60 in us rank). I remember a computer graphics test where a lot of questions were of the type "Which companies created the consortium maintaining the opengl specification?"... it was fully possible to obtain a passing grade just by rote memorization of facts. So I have no trouble believing that in the US it's possible in some unis to get a software engineering degree without understanding or critical thining
> a lot of grades are composed of tests, not projects
(Take home) projects are easier than ever thanks to AI. In the past, you at least had to track down some person to do the work for you.
Half of my graduating class could barely program.
Yep. Way more than half of the people I interview can't even do a very basic FizzBuzz, even with guidance. Those are people with a degree, job experience and reference letters.
What did you study?
Computer Science.
I see. Computer Science is not an engineering degree and it is not about programming. That's what Software Engineering degrees are for.
Most CS programs have software dev in their curricula; I don't think it's wild to expect a CS student to code FizzBuzz.
Yes, but overall it's still a science degree and not an engineering degree.
I graduated in 2006 in CS, and I had at least 5 or 6 software development classes. We also had electives, which included DB design and algorithms. Many of the higher-level classes allowed us to use any language of our choice as well.
I was self-taught since I was 15, so most of these classes were just review for me. I met lots of people that didn't know how to code as seniors (and never ended up getting a job in their field).
Many of the top schools don't have software/computer engineering degrees, rather people who want to be SWEs get CS degrees.
Yes, you're right. And that's a problem.
Software engineers graduates I've met are usually much worse at programming than computer science graduates.
I'm gonna strongly +1 on this.
Most of the "Software Engineering" curricula I've seen is catered towards "getting a job as a programmer", and is mostly focused on languages, frameworks and outdated processes.
As an engineer in another discipline, there's no engineering there.
I would rank like this: Computer Science > Self Taught > Software Engineering.
I might go as far as saying that SE is dogmatic. And the dogma is usually very outdated. Not necessarily useless, though.
That too
The practice of software engineering is not what they teach in university.
I would say that today's graduates are IMO a bit better than a few decades ago but there are still many graduating who are just not good at writing computer software and don't really have the aptitude for that (or maybe the interest in getting good). That's what happens when the pipeline of people coming in are people who want to make money and the institution is mostly a degree factory.
I've seen it happen multiple times. Engineering degrees are no different than a vast majority of degrees in that if you are good at the read and regurgitate cycle, you can make it through. Not only can you make it through, but you can do it with a very respectable GPA. They come out with a large dictionary of keywords in their arsenal, but no idea how to put them into practice. Some are able to put it into practice and tie it all together. As they see practical examples of those keywords in the real world, it starts falling like dominoes, and at an accelerating rate. For some, it never goes much beyond keywords. The dominoes fall, but it is slow, and they stop falling for extended periods of time for them. Not many mature engineering organizations can tolerate that sort of progression rate. They usually don't last very long at any one place, until they find a company where they can blend into the background due to a combination of company culture, and low complexity systems being worked on.
OP should have put "engineers" in double quotes. Many software developers like to describe themselves as engineers although they don't have an actual engineering degree. A lot of software development resembles plumbing more than engineering, so most devs don't really need an engineering degree anyway, but they should be more honest about what they're actually doing and not try to elevate themselves with fancy titles.
You are, of course, right that the idea that someone could finish a serious engineering degree without being able to think is ridiculous.
You can do engineering without an engineering degree. A degree is just a piece of paper.
I don't know but I can point at more than half of the people that I work with that can't think, and every time they try to, takes a whole group of people that can think to undo their mess, they all have degrees and I don't.
So what does that tell me?
Better yet, for about 30% having the LLM slop it would have yielded better outcomes, but having them slop something nets terrible slop. But at least I can reshape because even the LLM wont do something that stupid.
A degree is passing the test. Not all degree programs get into more advanced topics nor do they necessarily require that someone is able to work through how to solve a problem that they haven't seen before.
--
A lot of students (and developers out there too) are able to pass follow instructions and pass the test.
A smaller portion of them are able to divide up a task into the "this is what I need to do to accomplish that task".
Even fewer of them are able to work through the process of identifying the cause of a problem they haven't seen before and work through to figure out what the solution for that problem is.
--
... There are also a lot of people out there that aren't even able to fall into the first group without copying and pasting from another source. I've seen the "stack sort" at work https://xkcd.com/1185/ https://gkoberger.github.io/stacksort/ professionally. People copying and pasting from Stack Overflow (back in the day) without understanding what they're writing.
Now, they do it with AI. Take the contents of the Jira description, paste it into some text box, submit the new code as a PR, take the feedback from the PR and paste it back into the box and repeat that a few times. I've seen PRs with "you're absolutely correct, here are the updates you requested" be sent back to me for review again.
This is not a new thing. AI didn't cause it, but AI is exacerbating the issue with professional programming by having the people who are not much more than some meat between one text box and another (yes, I'm being a bit harsh there) and the people who need instructions but don't understand design to be more "productive" while overwhelming the more senior developers.
... And this also becomes a set of permanent training wheels on developers who might be able to learn more if they had to do it. That applies at all levels. One needs to practice without training wheels and learn from mistakes to get better.
Mate, have you never had to deal with over-confident graduates who think they've got the complete answers, but, in reality, they only have a sliver of the whole picture in their minds?
That is different than the suggestion that one could graduate with a CS degree and "never think." Which is absurd.
I agree in part, but I think AI does meaningfully make it harder for leadership to detect their bullshit.