I am still trying to figure out the business model of open weights. Like... it's wonderful that there are open LLMs, super happy about it, good for everyone, but why are there these? What is the advantage to their companies to release them?
I am still trying to figure out the business model of open weights. Like... it's wonderful that there are open LLMs, super happy about it, good for everyone, but why are there these? What is the advantage to their companies to release them?
IMHO this is only temporary, china buying themselves some time and want to make sure none of US models get entrenched in their position in the next few years (also putting pressure on US AI companies bleeding them)
The same way like Windows got entrenched everywhere even though linux desktop is pretty good even for non-tech savvy people and free.
> even though linux desktop is pretty good even for non-tech savvy people
Let's not get carried away.
A stock Fedora install has more UI consistency and cleanliness than Windows these days.
Non-technical people are easier to please in this regard than moderate-technical people: a good browser and safe, gui "app store" are enough.
My grandma just clicks on the red fox and does whatever online. A lot of people don't use any software outside of the browser, so it's pretty good-enough I guess.
The business case for ChromeOS (Linux)
Seems like people don't like this comment, but I chuckled. Nice one.
I was completely (well, mostly) serious, too. I think technical people tend to downplay friction because it doesn't really register to them, or they have too much faith in the average person's computer skills.
The average non-technical person is going to be stumped by the first "lock file found, cannot upgrade" error.
How many users of modern Linux can thrive with ZERO terminal use sessions? That’s the bar.
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Downward pressure on proprietary model pricing until a lab can catch up. Also good for hiring talent (who love OSS).
Cultural influence is another benefit. China is securing its sphere of influence as well as keeping us ai in check.
It's analogous to open-source software, which never had an obvious economic incentive either, although training an LLM necessary costs money whereas developing an OSS project might only cost time, which people are probably more likely to give up.
Yeah, but open-source software could have been me in the garage banging away on some program I submit to Debian or whatever... it didn't require millions of dollars to train, a lot of it was just side hobbies for a long time. Corporations sponsor it and contribute work because they need it to do more than what it does for free, not out of the goodness of their hearts.
https://try.works/why-chinese-ai-labs-went-open-and-will-rem...
Big AI labs are losing money. Open Models is making the pricing equation a lot trickier for them.
They are making the hardware and commoditizing the complement.
Balaji's "AI OVERPRODUCTION" post is the most compelling thesis that I've come across
Right now it’s so the Chinese can undermine the frontier models in the US. In areas they’re doing well like video generation (ie seedance) they won’t open source anything.
There are some short term ones but I doubt this will continue, especially for the more powerful models.
I mean, this is straight out of chinas playbook, it should not be surprising that China is making an inferior derivative product at an artificially lower price point: state subsidies to massively drive up internal scale and supply chains leading to artificially lower priced goods which then suffocate the competition has lead to *gestures vaguely at everything* being made in china.
People use their model otherwise they would not.
> What is the advantage to their companies to release them?
It's a distribution strategy. It costs something to serve the models - let's say $5/1M tokens.
If Qwen required $5 from anyone who was curious so you could even begin to test it out, a lot of people just wouldn't.
Now Qwen could offer a "free" tier, but it's infinitely cheaper to provide the weights and let people run it themselves including opening up the ability for anyone else on the planet to test it against other (open weight) models.
The costs to build the open weight models are sunk, but the costs to serve them, get them tested are not.
It's also precisely why the .NET SDK is free or the ESP32 SDK is free - they sell more Microsoft or ESP32 products.
The majority are released by socialists, and by socialist I mean the People's Republic of China. Which everyone seems to forget is a socialist country working towards world communism.
They are a prestige propaganda tool on par with the space race. On top of that they insert a subtle pro-socialist bias in everything they touch.
Ask deepseek about the US economic system for a blatant example.
Now think what something as innocent seeming as the qwen retrieval models are doing in the background of every request.
You're talking to a Canadian, and I'm not scared of the "red menace". You should be more scared - those guys can build bullet trains while you Yanks are finding it hard to even keep the old ones you have running. The solution here isn't going to be some kind of ideological force that protects people from different ideas, and that's an unAmerican way to fix things anyway. Embrace other ideas; central planning doesn't have to be evil, you just have to find a way to stop putting evil people in charge.
> those guys can build bullet trains while you Yanks are finding it hard to even keep the old ones you have running
This is an argument in the lane of "at least he built the Autobahn".
Speaking as a German.
He was a foreigner too ;)
The US can’t build bullet trains because property rights and local regulations make it prohibitively expensive. Not due to capability.
I don't know where people get this idea.
America has several sets of eminent domain laws depending on the jurisdiction. The most coercive is federal eminent domain law specifically as it relates to building infrastructure like railways and highways.
It's set up so that you can take the land first and eventually go back around and decide on what the right price should have been.
Not only does it superscede state and local law, federal infrastructure projects are also not bound by state laws like CEQA.
You can even apply federal eminent domain law by e.g. transferring a state-level project to the Army Corps of Engineers.
What America is lacking in these projects is will, not means. The federal government could take your house and run a train through it by the end of the week if they wanted, doesn't matter where you live.
[edit] In fact some states even ceded their eminent domain rights to private railways.
https://ij.org/press-release/appeals-court-sides-with-railro...
> property rights
The Australian federal government is planning to build a high-speed rail line from Sydney to Newcastle (medium-sized city two hours drive north). Their solution to property rights, is >50% of the line will be underground. It will cost >US$50 billion, but if the Australian federal government wants to spend that, it can afford it. The US federal government could too, but it isn’t a priority for them
> local regulations make it prohibitively expensive
Local regulations can be pre-empted by state or federal legislation. The real problem is lack of political will to do it.
Surely there are existing rails right now that could be transformed into a bullet train line.
Like properties and regulations are a true problem, but it's not like trains don't exist at all in America.
My understanding is that existing rail lines aren't flat/straight enough for high speed rail. There's no point to a bullet train if it has to constantly slow down for corners/hills.
the US can't build bullet trains because they'd serve the average person and there's no money in serving the average person
Property rights, regulations and price are precisely the part of the American system that takes away that capability.
>you just have to find a way to stop putting evil people in charge.
Of course, why did no one think of that?
Xi is an obviously more capable and effective leader than Trump, but the US actually does have ways to boot people out of office when they do a bad job, and clear methods to choose successors, and China has neither. That matters more than who happens to be in charge right now.
The so-called inability to build trains is precisely because of a socialist/leftist style view that prevents this. I think you may not be aware that China has what's called a command economy. There is no one that is going to tell the Party that they cannot build a train in some area is because of ancient bush species or some kind of heirloom fruit and certainly not some awkward looking endangered species of fish.
Literal Trump Derangement Syndrome. America has a comically horrendous president but remains fundamentally a liberal democracy… and Canada concludes “literal Nazis are a better choice”. It’s uncanny how much can be taken for granted :(
(American talking, who’s had multiple Canadian friends make this mind boggling overcorrection)
Weimar Germany also was fundamentally a liberal democracy. Hitler seized power legally.
Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.
The president of the United States has much to his dismay, been consistently legally constrained. The chancellor of Germany had significantly more power, both de facto and de jure.
"Man with itchy butt wake up with stinky finger." As long as we're quoting maxims to claim authority for middling takes.
> Which everyone seems to forget is a socialist country working towards world communism.
It's easy to forget because they actually built an incredibly vibrant capitalist economy.
They build an incredibly vibrant _market_ economy with no property rights and very little due process.
Imagine if Musk was disappeared during the Biden presidency into a diversity camp and came out looking like Dr. Frank-N-Furter and instituted mandatory LGBT struggle sessions at twitter.
This is what they did to Jack Ma: https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgecalhoun/2021/06/24/what-r...
do you ever get tired of making up scenarios to be scared about lgbt people?
Are you able to hold a hypothetical in your mind?
yeah but mine don't reveal my unhealthy obsession with trans people
More constructively, and moving on, do you have any suggestions for a good throwaway example of an extreme radical transformation in a person?
TBH I had a chuckle at the Elon -> Frank-N-Furter example that transcends any specific love or hate for either Elon or the Rocky Horror Show.
The point was being made that a billionaire figurehead drastically changed their views after an "indeterminate time" detained by national authorities.
IE what if Musk suddenly behaved in such a manner after being detained by a Biden administration. Wouldn't that be profoundly weird?!?
And yet, it happened to Jack Ma under the CCP.
But instead, you try to link the "weird behaviour" with the GP instead of the hypothetical Musk - whom this is fitting for.
> The point was being made that a billionaire figurehead drastically changed their views after an "indeterminate time" detained by national authorities.
> IE what if Musk suddenly behaved in such a manner after being detained by a Biden administration. Wouldn't that be profoundly weird?!?
We've seen that. Durov in France after detention began sharing Telegram users' data with authorities. It's unclear how much, but likely full real time access to all of it.
Ironically, there is a rich history of mandatory anti-gay camps in the United States, while there are zero instances of mandatory diversity/LGBT camps.
How does such a place not become a hook up camp? Even with total surveillance there the victims can like change phone number I guess.
You sure have a way of making the Chinese system sound even more appealing.
It's all fun and games when the oppression is against your enemies. The problem is, if the system is set up like that eventually it'll be your turn.
It is my turn right now. The working class is being oppressed as we speak. That's why the system needs to be dismantled so we can strike back.
Is China even really communist? If anything they seem to be fairly on the Capitalist side but just a bit opposite on the spectrum of the US. And much more authoritarian
Just nationalist with focus on community?
The usual thing to say is state capitalist but honestly they do keep a market around too. A little hybrid of everything, I guess? Just with the state ready to jump in and intervene if anything happens they don't like.
Can we just call it what it is?
Fascism (in the Mussolini model) in everything but name.
- Hyper-Nationalism & Rejuvenation - State-Controlled Capitalism (Corporatism) - Authoritarian & Cult of Personality - Militarism & Irredentism
And they have technology to maintain control rather than needing the Black-shirts.
There are differences obviously to fit Chinese culture, but there are many parallels.
From what I understand their one hundred year plan is right on schedule.