Do horns and bells really prevent accidents?
In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient.
Structurally, we'd be much better off reducing conflicts between the different tiers of users. I.e. properly segregated infrastructure for each class of vehicle.
A horn or bell is mostly for telling other people "hey I'm here, stay out of my way and dont suddenly cross into my path"
My opinion as a cyclist is that I should basically only be using my bell on pedestrians when the pedestrians are wandering onto the bike lane. If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do. Some cyclists ring their bells because they're worried a pedestrian might suddenly turn into their path, but I think if one is concerned about that, it's a sign youre cycling too fast, and should just slow down.
With cars, I will sometimes proactively ring my bell at them if I think they're not sufficiently aware enough of me though.
>My opinion as a cyclist is that I should basically only be using my bell on pedestrians when the pedestrians are wandering onto the bike lane. If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do.
The culture around this varies a lot. I'm in Melbourne, Australia. Virtually all bike paths are "shared", and many have signs telling you to ring your bell when approaching pedestrians - you're not telling them to move out of the way, you're telling them that you're there.
In practice, I tend to use one ding to mean "I'm here" and multiple dings to mean "you're on the wrong side of the path and need to move".
But in no situation do I rely on a bike bell to avoid an accident.
I've always wanted two horns in my car: one that toots with a smile and a tip of the hat, and one that heralds your pending demise. It sounds like Australia cycle bell culture does that with short vs. long bell ding-a-lings.
Which is kind of how it has worked with cars, except I find that more and more cars have a style of horn that's hard to control with the necessary precision. Maybe this is Canadian culture but I get very anxious that my horn will honk for a millisecond too long and the poor victim will think I'm angry at them.
I can corroborate this finding -- I think the horn switch is just a logic-level digital switch going into one or more MCUs somewhere, subjected to all manner of latency and (probably) CANBUS jitter. It's not great. Trying to send Morse, or even a quick 'toot toot' results in a garbled mangled mess, and I find that very annoying. My early cars & motorbike had what felt like direct, switched control over power to the horn, those were great to use. I've debated installing a dedicated pushbutton rated for the amperage or at least controlling a solenoid somewhere that would power the horn.
As an experiment, I've found that you can reliably detect the presence of crummy horn control by trying to pulse the horn for the shortest amount of time possible. The shorter my push on the horn button gets, the more likely it is that the timing will feel wrong somehow, or the horn doesn't even sound at all.
I've definitely tried friendly beeps at friends or neighbors and it came out sounding like an angry honk.
The Ineos Grenadier 4x4 has a 'toot' function for cyclists, largely because Ineos is a sponsor of a cycling team.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PbGp24MIRDQ
go somewhere appropriate and do a little practice with the friendly multi-tap vs. the two-hand push!
adding on a wave helps too; I wish more drivers waved...
Reminds me of a mini-course I took on sound design. Lots of exercises in trying to squeeze expression out of a limited palette. Not too different from LEDs, but of course we have different cultural references for audio. Neat subject.
I hate how many cars I see these days with windows so tinted that eye contact and waves are impossible.
It feels dangerous to be unable to see the driver through their side window (eg. 4-way stop eye contact on who goes)
Agreed! It's a small but satisfying interaction to have that coordination and unspoken communication with other drivers at a 4-way stop.
I've taught my kids when crossing the street to make eye contact with drivers to make sure they see you. Drivers with smartphones unfortunately add to the challenge.
Some large trucks have that. A "city horn" that is like a normal car horn, and the traditional air horn that will rattle your windows.
> you're telling them that you're there.
Which, IMO is important. Even if they aren't in your way, it can help avoid an accident. If you're on any sort of nicer, well maintained road bike, it's going to be near silent. I've startled pedestrians on mine, so I now ring my bell every time I'm approaching someone, not as a "get out of my way" signal but more of a "hey! I'm coming up behind you, don't get startled and jump into my path"
Generally though, if its a particularly crowded path, I just ride in the road. In stop and go city traffic I'm usually going as fast if not faster than traffic anyway.
my own experience is that in the city the bell was to alert people that I think aren't paying attention to me and may be about to step into the bike lane. 100% like you said, I'm letting someone know I'm there
Now that I moved to the country with a comprehensive rails-to-trail network, I thank all the cyclists that use the bell to let me know they're coming up behind me. What really irks me is the dudes going 30+mph silently coming up behind me, passing less than 2' from my dog (who is at my side) when there's PLENTY of room to give me space. No, we can't hear them coming all the time. Yes, it's startling, rude, and dangerous for all of us.
In Germany it's illegal to drive bikes that assist beyond 28km/h (about 20mph) in what are true bike paths (which can be built as lanes! And, notably, they can be marked as virtual-lane-shared (pictogram side by side with a vertical divider) or as true shared (pictogram above and below at a horizontal divider), if pedestrians are also allowed to use them.
An ancient gas-e-bike rating is allowed on them outside city limits but iirc those bikes are exceedingly rare since even before e-bikes became truly mainstream.
I prefer to slow down and actually just say hello to them, they'll usually say sorry and I'm back on my way again. Just ringing a bell, or worse a horn, scares them and they need to turn round to figure out where you are and whether you're about to squash them. I don't feel I have the right to do that to someone just out enjoying a peaceful walk.
On the other hand, I've been angered by dog owners when running who just take up the entire pavement. A couple of weeks ago, I had one guy coming towards me force me to come to a complete stop when I was running flat out, because he couldn't be bothered to control his dogs. He was in the centre of the pavement, and the 2 dogs were at the extreme edges with tight enough leads between him and the dogs, so it'd have tripped me up if I'd tried to jump them. He knew full well I was heading that way, but in the 10 seconds since we had made eye contact, he was clearly determined not to reign his dogs in, and it was only when I was stopped and so he had to reign them in to continuing walking past that I was able to keep using the pavement.
Your right and I think local culture gets the difference between the escalating "move over! I've rung my bell 5 times already" vs. the light courtesy "coming up from behind" ring
It's legally mandated in my city so I guess the polite thing to do is ring a bell, you know, just stick to the protocol, for everyone's sake. A bell however seems at least as likely to startle someone into behaving erratically as not.
As far as the pedestrian's safety is concerned what matters is either giving them a wide berth or slowing right down when passing.
Whether on a bike or not I'm sick of all the modern world's beeping and ringing and buzzing and blaring and if I'm wearing noise cancelling headphones that means I don't want to hear it. Don't tell you're being annoying for my own good because you aren't.
First reaction to warning tone should always be to (safely!) stop and assess.
Considering that the persons involved can't be expected to not be deaf, or functionally so via e.g. headphones, and thus you always have to be able to brake anyways. Running onto a driving lane (be it bikes or cars doesn't matter) without looking especially if the direction you didn't look just gave an audible warning is always reckless.
My solution to this is that I ring my bell when I'm far from people, usually twice while I'm still a fair way away. It just gets pedestrians conscious that there's a bike around, while also being far enough away that it's not going to surprise them and I don't think they assume it's an aggressive bell.
My least favourite is when a cyclist speeds past and shouts "on ya right" (I'm in Australia) but they shout it when they're so close that there's no chance of hearing and understanding in time.
That's how I do it too. I'll tap bell once (and let the ring sustain) when I'm about ~5 seconds from overtaking them so people know there's something coming up behind them, and the sustained sound tells them how fast it's coming. This is especially important with runners, who are prone to suddenly take a U-turn if they're at the end of their route.
Pedestrians regularly wave acknowledgement or even say "thank you." Some other cyclists (especially on e-bikes) just blast by with no warning.
The problem with bells is that they aren't very directional. It's hard for my brain to figure out from which direction the sound is coming from. Someone speaking "on your left" is much more directional, and it includes important context as to what the warning is about.
Its pretty safe to assume on a trail if you hear a bell that a bike is coming up behind you.
Or from the side or oncoming and he's just behind the crowd of pedestrians ahead of you.
Yes haha - a bike coming from _somewhere_
Agreed.
I saw one recently where the cyclist shouted out something like, "ON YOUR LEFT!" and all it did was startle the crap out of a jogger who spun around into the path of the bicycle. Luckily just a close call. That cyclist's "warnings", with no time for pedestrians to react properly, were really just a game of Russian roulette. (And really rude, as you say).
Shouting that while traveling too fast is indeed incorrect, but a polite "on your left" or bell while traveling an appropriate speed is considered good behavior to avoid surprising pedestrians.
The problem is there's a good number of people that hear "on your left" and shift left.
A gentle bell mostly doesn't do that.
Yeah, I prefer a bell.
also - even though the pedestrian has the obligation to move over - a friendly thanks! or thank you! helps all cyclists in the long-run.
This again depends on the jurisdiction and kind of path you're on. Where I grew up, if it's not separated into bicyclist & pedestrian lanes, bikes yield to pedestrians.
On US forest trails, the general rule is bikes yield to pedestrians and everyone yields to horses.
(Obviously pedestrians walking in bicycle lanes are doing it wrong.)
Yep, a wave helps as well.
Outside of some stage actors and drill sergeants, there are probably few people who can project their voices well enough that a vocal warning is useful.
You're either traveling slow enough that it's not necessary (and why yell at people if you have to?), or are too far away for someone to understand and get a bearing on who isn't already looking at you.
A bell is still rude in a shared space but used correctly, a decent one can at least be effective.
> A bell is still rude in a shared space
I just don't think that is even a little bit true, or at least it's something that is very culturally specific and thus not generally applicable.
I have a friendly sounding bell I use from an appropriate distance (and I can modulate the volume), and I routinely have people give a light wave to show they heard. In addition, the biggest complaint about cyclists in local social media is about them passing without notice.
If you just bell once or twice, and don't aggressively keep ringing, I'd never consider a bicycle bell in a shared space rude. I even consider it good manners, though as others have said, that varies between cultures.
Being visually impaired, though, I'm grateful for cyclists who use their bell. It's immediately clear. For some reason, my brain takes slightly longer to process someone yelling "on your left!" or similar, than just a quick "ring ring".
Cyclists will normally do the same thing passing out other cyclists at a 5-10 km/h speed difference, and it's definitely useful there.
Unfortunately in many jurisdictions it is legally required to do that when passing a pedestrian.
Can you list some examples? When I lived in Chicago it was quite common for cyclists to shout this on the long lakefront trail, I wonder if that's the case there too.
> Some cyclists ring their bells because they're worried a pedestrian might suddenly turn into their path,
This is wrong - on mixed use paths, it is customary and proper to announce "on your left" when passing, and a bell is a nice alternative. Even cycling slowly pedestrians can do some very erratic things, and moreover are very surprised when cyclists suddenly appear on their left (and may do something dumb in surprise!).
> This is wrong - on mixed use paths, it is customary and proper to announce "on your left" when passing
This is neither customarily nor regulatory uniform. There are mixed-use trails near me where bells are required. There are some trails where most people use a bell, some trails where nobody uses a bell, and some where there is a mix.
In my personal experience, the ratio of bikes to pedestrians and the purpose of the trail greatly affects how people tend to handle this.
On the bike trail it is crucial to do a shoulder check when changing lanes. Some people get "in the zone" and ignore all other traffic in the singular pursuit of the shortest times. They will get very very angry if you get in front of them, if they spot you at all instead of just slamming into your rear tire at full speed.
I personally can't stand to ride without a mirror for situational awareness (or, if on road, a mirror and also radar).
> A horn or bell is mostly for telling other people "hey I'm here, stay out of my way and dont suddenly cross into my path"
This. I only use the bell on bike paths, too. Sometimes it feels like a game of pac-man, where baddies will wander into my path from all directions and in all kinds of ways. Cars doing a right turn, zombies staring into phones, people walking backwards (!), zombies staring into phones walking backwards, it doesn't end.
The ultimate cyclist killer: those stupid extending dog leashes.
Back when I roller skated, the ultimate question: you see a person and a dog, several meters apart. Is there a leash between them? :-)
Oof. If yes, you might be about to get nailed. If no, will the dog run after me and bite me?
I’ve had a dog on my heels doing doing 40kmh.
They were at my heel, past the back of my rear tyre. I was briefly a competitive sprint cyclist.
That is an issue on bike paths that are build inside a sidewalk, the cycling path is usually build using a smoother surface than the one designed for pedestrians. Plus it sometimes has a brighter paint.
I am pretty sure most people don't realize it but they are inconciously attracted to it. It just feels better walking on it.
No, every bike path in a city inevitably has crossings or is laid out next to a sidewalk. People just do their random-walk thing (Brownian motion, really, sometimes) and wander into the bike path.
That's an issue on any bike path in the US, even if it's a fire road in the middle of nowhere. I bet there are people walking their dogs or checking Instagram on the single track course that is used for the Red Bull Rampage.
Yeah, it happens on sidewalks, bike trails, mixed use trails, and dedicated bike lanes. If anything, dedicated bike lanes are the worst because they get errant pedestrians and cars.
> If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do.
It’s certainly rude to ring the bell in a aggressive manner, but many bells are capable of producing much softer, more polite sounds.
In super busy old European capitals I find that people increasingly just ride around with speakers playing a constant tune at a reasonable volume, a massive improvement on dense streets full of varyingly sober people.
> In super busy old European capitals I find that people increasingly just ride around with speakers playing a constant tune at a reasonable volume, a massive improvement on dense streets full of varyingly sober people.
I sometimes do that. It helps not having music that could be described as aggressive. I often use reggae.
However it means you need a speaker charged so it is not something I have ready everytime I use my bicycle, nor do I want to carry it everyday when leaving the bike attached somewhere so it can't be the goto solution.
I still think that ringing bells at people is a little rude, regardless of the tone. Like imagine if you were at the grocery store, blocking the isle and someone lightly chimed a bell at you instead of just saying "excuse me".
IMO if I'm in a dense pedestrian zone and I can't go around people and I can't communicate by voice, it means I'm going too fast.
It's just cultural. If there's a cultural expectation of the ring/honk it's not rude. e.g. in India people will honk as a form of active group flock behaviour but foreigners will interpret it as everyone saying "get out of my way"; but in some European countries I have seen that people use the bell (much less noisy than the typical Indian street) and it's got the same meaning. In Hawaii, if you ever honk at someone, you're going to have a fight on your hands. In San Francisco, if you honk at someone and you're on Bush Street it means you're trying to help the traffic light change (it's a team effort) but anywhere else you get anything from a gun drawn, to a brake check, to a wave in apology for missing the light by being on the phone.
Overall, cultural expectations are everything here so it's best to just "when in Rome, do as Romans do".
Can you explain to me what it means to try to get the traffic light to change on Bush street? I tried searching for it but couldn't find anything.
It was a not-particularly-amusing joke that people honk because doing so helps the light change. It doesn’t, of course, but I used to work at a building at the intersection of Bush and Sansome (I think), the Standard Oil Building, and every day at 5 PM the honking would put Bombay to shame.
I don't agree with the former, a bell is not rude if you actuate it in advance from far enough. I do that if I see people about to cross my path but looking somewhere else or if there are kids wandering because I know that kids tend to be imprevisible, are often not very aware of their surrounding and have a smaller field of view. If you are just a handful of meters from them, it is just too late to ring a bell, you should have slowed down already anyway.
There is nothing to be done against old people using noise so I just prepare to stop.
Still agree on the second statement.
>> Like imagine if you were at the grocery store, blocking the isle and someone lightly chimed a bell at you
That sounds delightful. We should have more bells lightly chimed around us.
I agree with you, but I can report that in Germany people ring bells constantly and it is simply considered normal. Big cultural difference.
Here the pedestrian-bicycle problems are much more likely to occur on dedicated bike paths than in pedestrian zones (where bicyclists must ride at walking speed). Usually a pedestrian nonchalantly crossing the bike path at an angle without paying the slightest attention to what they're doing.
The same people tend to ignore the bell. They're in their own world. I usually shout at them to move in that case. A friend of mine instead bought a loud horn connected to a can of compressed gas, which commands attention much more easily than a puny little bell. Works on car drivers, too.
On shared use trails, I suspect your voice might give out (especially given the headphone status of most pedestrians) and a bicycle bell is less ambiguous than a voice, which could be a fast walker, a runner, or a bicyclist.
Pedestrians still exist in non dense zones. It seems there's no way to win. I've been told that I should use a bell because vocal addresses are too startling.
Now if there's not enough room to pass safely and silently I completely slow to the pedestrians speed and THEN calmly say excuse me. But I'm convinced that there is just no universally correct way to do it. If you pass people in any way whatsoever, sooner or later someone is going to get mad about it.
> Now if there's not enough room to pass safely and silently I completely slow to the pedestrians speed and THEN calmly say excuse me. But I'm convinced that there is just no universally correct way to do it.
Anyone who is mad that you politely passed them at a safe speed is just too sensitive about these things. You're totally fine there. But "room to pass safely and silently" could still piss people off depending on your speed and distance.
The conclusion I came to is that being totally fine there is independent from whether people could get pissed off about a thing. I try operate in a safe and reasonable manner. I'm sure some people are pissed, as some people will always be.
A noisy free hub is my solution.
Back peddling or coasting gets people’s attention. Though moving slowly uphill and needing to back peddle is a bit of a test.
> imagine if you were at the grocery store, blocking the isle and someone lightly chimed a bell at you instead of just saying "excuse me"
Greetings from Sweden, where some people will verbally announce "honk honk" (tuut tuut) while avoiding eye contact – then bump into your leg with their grocery cart.
If you're in a grocery store and aren't maintaining enough situational awareness to preemptively move out of somebody's way, I file that as rude. I'm sure the ingredients on that box of slop are very engaging, but you should still be able to see and hear a shopping car rolling up on you.
>blocking the isle and someone lightly chimed a bell at you instead of just saying "excuse me".
Well, at least here in Europe I’d have to spend a decent amount of time deciding which language to use.
I'm also in Europe, and I always just either say the equivalent in the local language, or just use english. Even in the smallest most remote villages, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find someone who doesn't know the word "sorry".
I’ve found that speaking the wrong language often results in people freezing up as they process what I just said to them, that’s often counterproductive.
I just shout "dreen dreen".. which more or less is the sound a bike bell makes, works anywhere
It's essential on narrow shared paths e.g. a canal towpath, when you're approaching a pedestrian from behind in order to avoid startling them when you pass.
Most people walking the canal towpath around here know this, runners in particular will sometimes be give a wave or visual acknowledgement they've heard you without turning around.
I think bells do have a communication use of course, just not really to be used as an emergency 'an accident is about to happen, immediately take action'.
At least a bell sounds relatively polite if you're not spamming it. A horn is a bit aggressive, you have to modulate it.
In a car I use two short tapped toots as a polite kind of 'excuse me' e.g. if someone hasn't noticed a light turning green. That seems more friendly than a sustained blast.
On the bike with a bell I'll just say thank you as I pass, if they've moved for me. Usually seems to go down well enough.
it's a good habit to just ring your bell when approaching things like merges and city intersections regardless if there's other people; you tend to do it earlier and might miss seeing someone.
> I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way,
I got yelled at very rudely the other day for overtaking a pedestrian without ringing my bell. I thought I had plenty of space, rode at an appropriate speed and didn't want to be rude, like you said, but I guess you can never please everyone.
It sounds silly, but apart from liking the sound, this is why I really like wheels with loud hubs.
I have a pair of Hunt wheels and they work fantastically, bonus points because they are “always on”, pedestrians are aware of them, but are never surprised.
See how your comment has inbuilt sass? It doesn’t matter what you consider plenty of space and an appropriate speed- if you startle me, I’m going to yell at you for not ringing a bell to let me know you were there.
Note that the worst kind of canal towpath cyclist is the one who slows to a crawl and creeps behind me for minutes sometimes unnoticed, biding their time for a passing spot with lots of space. Just ring the frigging bell and I will stand out of your way for the 3 seconds it takes you to get by!
Its a shared path yes but by two sets of people going at two very different speeds, so I don't feel particularly guilty about the bell, though I do try to avoid it if possible.
> With cars, I will sometimes proactively ring my bell at them if I think they're not sufficiently aware enough of me though.
There's only a few types of car that will be "aware" of cyclists and I don't think ringing a bell will help their algorithms. Getting the attention of a driver, meanwhile, is difficult with a bell as often they'll be in a semi-soundproof cage with loud music on. (Also deaf drivers are a thing).
I've never really considered using a bell for motorised traffic. I did once buy a loud air-horn, but it was so loud and abrasive that I never used it as it seemed really rude.
> I've never really considered using a bell for motorised traffic.
It works surprisingly well if the car isn't moving quickly. Cars aren't as sound isolating as you'd think. My main use-case is that a car is stopped at an intersection, or crossing my lane so they can turn, and I'm worried they'll pull out and hit me because they're looking the wrong way focused on car traffic, and in these situations they almost always hear my bell.
Bicycle bells are mostly for warning pedestrians when approaching from behind and passing on shared-use trails. I ride on shared infrastructure and cannot afford to build new infrastructure when my town will not. Not warning a pedestrian when approaching from behind introduces the possibility of collision if the pedestrian makes a sudden change in his walking course. I typically use this etiquette:
Passing a single pedestrian or runner on a quiet day: no bell, coasting for a short bit with a loud free hub (the rotating ratchet element on the rear wheel) alerts the pedestrian to my presence.
Passing a runner: normal ring from a distance so they have knowledge that the bicycle is passing
Passing a cyclist: one loud ring from a distance
Passing a pedestrian walking a dog: two loud rings, one far, one close, so that the pedestrian is aware of the approaching bicycle and he can prevent his dog from running at me/colliding. Many dogs do seem to enjoy a bicycle chase.
Antisocial pedestrians (i.e., walking side-by-side such as to be blocking the path in both directions, preventing the bicyclist from passing): several loud rings of the bell until the antisocial activity has abated. Announcements in my local tongue (not English) that they impede the flow of traffic.
I wonder if you are German?
Spending some time in Germany from Holland I notice there is a significant difference in cycling etiquette :)
Especially regarding “passing a cyclist” which also touches on the essential difficulty with having only one “ring” sound.
Always when Germans pass me on the bike and they ring I get slightly annoyed because I interpret it as a “get out of the way” ring, and I feel like there is enough space. But perhaps it’s just the cautious “don’t do anything unexpected” ring.
A Dutch person would rarely ring at another cyclist in the former way. But they also might be less safety focused while cycling (see also: helmet usage). Or we have safer infrastructure already.
On a road bike, however, I too ring at pedestrians “preemptively”. For sure GPs remark of “if you need to ring you’re going too fast” applies here but that’s the essence of road cycling.
Ironically I’m also annoyed when road cyclists ring at me for the same reason.
Just shows the case for having 2 clearly different types of rings.
(Also for cars to have a “thank you” horn, haha)
Living now in Germany :)
I ring a very nice bell and can "mute" the bell (touching it with my hand to stop the ring just after thumbing the striker), so when ringing for information rather than hazard, it's a short quick ring, rather than a long loud ring.
Signs here alert cyclists to warn when passing, so certainly this etiquette is considered normal, but also I imagine it is not universal to all regions.
As a Dutch person, I experience exactly this dilemma: ringing the bell feels like telling people to get out of the way, when often there is plenty of space for me to pass through, but I know that there's a significant chance that they're going to veer into my way if they don't know I'm coming.
Of course, ringing my bell will often cause people to veer into the way, too. But then if you ring at a sufficient distance, you risk them not hearing it. Except there's no way to tell if they're not hearing it, or just consciously not veering into the way, and in the latter case, you don't want to ring again, because that will sound even more impatient.
Etiquette is hard.
(And yes, I want cars to have a bicycle bell too, so they can greet people without jump-scaring me.)
I used to slightly pull & quickly release a brake lever that made a less-annoying and less-loud "clack" noise when I wanted to be noticed but not to be annoying, generally when I knew I had no right of way but wanted to politely ask for a way around a group of people who hadn't noticed me yet.
This is exactly the same thing with the car horn: in some countries it seems to be used for "hey you, unprotected person, do NOT swerve right now, I am passing you with my car" versus in Sweden where I live, your'e not allowed that usage at all.
Also in Sweden, you do only use the bell if really needed.
as someone who moved to Netherlands couple of years ago, I started to be much more annoyed by cyclist in other countries. In Netherlands if I hear ring I know I'm doing something wrong and I need to stop and pay asses whatever I'm doing right now.
In other countries rings now seem either unnecessary (they have enough space) or rude (I'm not on bike lane, why do you demand me to give you a way).
cars are typically the biggest problems and it's usually their behaviour, but I always give a friendly wave when a car yields (or even just doesn't run me over).
One small victory at a a time...
What they described is also good etiquette in the Midwestern US.
Right it has a wider non-emergency comms purpose, I do this too. But I wouldn't do it and assume they've heard or understood, and so overtake too fast on that assumption. The overtake should be safe regardless.
I hate to tell you, but you are doing it wrong
If infrastructure is shared it doesn't mean you have more rights to pass than pedestrian.
Moreover, bell as a way to warn doesn't work. Because pedestrians will mostly get startled because of it and can actually do this sudden move you are trying to make them not do.
So if you are on fast vehicle comparing to others in the same infrastructure, you need to drive in a way, that you can't be affected of sudden turn of someone in front of you. Which basically means you need to slow down or give enough space for others to do their sudden moves.
When cycling on shared use infrastructure I generally find pedestrians understand the meaning of a bell as a warning. Certainly some do become startled and move unpredictably, but if you travel at a low enough speed and bell with enough distance that this isn't an issue.
I regularly cycle on a very narrow shared use pavement which is directly beside a 40mph road. There is space to pass pedestrians, but I would consider it dangerous to try and pass without ensuring they are aware of my presence, even when passing at a walking pace.
A chime of the bell is more of a polite "I'm here" instead of a "Get out of my way!"
Where I live, there are different levels of "shared" and I would be very confused if a cyclist would just stay behind me instead of ringing the bell. It's different cultures.
shared infrastructure means exactly that.
If they're blocking a bike, they're also blocking other pedestrians. It's rude no matter what.
I've been a cyclist in SF and in Amsterdam, both for many years.
In SF I used my bell much more aggressively. It was mainly for cars, if I'm in or entering their blind spot and my spidey sense tells me they are considering an action that places me in danger. For example, we all know when driving when the car in front of us is thinking about merging, even before they indicate (often I feel like I know before they do). I also used it for pedestrians stepping out into the street who are maybe looking past me for oncoming cars but somehow don't see me, or when approaching 'blind' situations like a sharp corner, a driver pulling out of a driveway but there is a tree between us, delivery drivers stepping out from their truck, etc. I can't say how many accidents have been prevented (the person may have eventually looked and seen me), but I can say that my bell has triggered people to look and see me earlier than they were going to had I not rang it.
In Amsterdam my bell is used much more sparingly. It's mostly for tourists stepping into (or considering stepping into) the bike lane. If they are already in the bike lane, I almost always prefer just to slow down a bit and dodge them, as ringing the bell often triggers a deer-caught-in-headlight moment or erratic behavior, which increases the chance of an accident or that I have to come to a full stop. The other situation is to express dissatisfaction at cars blocking bike lanes, cars/bikes not yielding, drivers blocking intersections, or other dangerous behavior. This isn't preventing an accident but I'd argue it is still important, as social control affects how often we make bad decisions. Outside the city I also use my bell to let other cyclists know I'm passing.
So yeah, I'd say bells prevent accidents, but obviously not as well as good biking infrastructure, where pedestrians, bikes, and cars have clear separate spaces, and visibility of cyclists to drivers is high.
It's not only about preventing accidents (but I do believe it prevents some to attempt answering your question).
It's also about signaling to someone that they might be doing something wrong or they might not be paying attention. For pedestrians it takes significantly less time and distance to stop, for cars, trams, and bicycles, it takes longer.
It happens all the time that pedestrians don't know the customs of a country, they don't recognize bike lines... in that case the cyclists do not need to pump the breaks anytime a clueless tourist gets in front of them... they can ring the bell, signaling:
"yo, it's not how we do it here, please watch out, I'm coming full speed and you are in the wrong, so please look up from your phone and stop right there".
I also had the luck to meet some people thinking they can be on their phone while cycling, drifting into my lane, etc... In that case, a bell is also adequate
"hey, please stop writing a text message while you are on your bike blazing through the city, you are driving as if you were drunk, pay attention please and stop multitasking (you moron)"
If nothing works to change their behavior, of course I'll try my best and hit the brakes safely, but I'd prefer they learned how to move around in the city safely.
My experiences on a motorcycle tell me that if you feel the need to honk you should be focusing on braking and evasive maneuvers instead.
The choice between between teaching some midwit the law and going home in one piece seems crystal clear to me.
In a couple of years of riding I think the horn would have very slightly helped maybe... once or twice. If the other guy would have heard it at all which is doubtful.
As someone who cycles daily, the bell is less aggressive than a car horn and it's a useful signaling tool about every other day. I need to signal that I'm approaching from behind pedestrians, especially if they are walking without any safe gaps for me to pass them through.
Phones? I've seen cyclists using laptops. Some of the most oblivious and entitled vehicle operators on the road.
> I've seen cyclists using laptops.
How? That seems like it would be rather mechanically challenging.
Sort of perched on the handlebars. It did seem almost impossible. Maybe there is a bracket of some sort being used.
Aw, I was hoping for some modded recumbent bicycle that has a whole desk on it.
> Do horns and bells really prevent accidents?
They absolutely do, for indirect reasons:
> Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake
Maybe easier, but it hardly seems fair, nor realistic.
With a bit of experience, you can tell when pedestrians are likely to stumble onto the bike lane without looking. Then you have two choices: Significantly reduce your speed, or ring your bell first and only reduce speed if they still haven't noticed the oncoming bike.
If you only reduce speed, you'll be traveling at a very low average speed, and time is money (especially for bike delivery workers, but I also hate having to sharply decelerate for people glued to their screen or otherwise completely unaware of their surroundings even if I'm not in a rush), so you can take a guess as to whether "just reducing your speed" is practicable.
> If you only reduce speed, you'll be traveling at a very low average speed, and time is money
Well this is a bit of an appeal to consequences. I would say (a) this is a very good reason to build dedicated infra, and (b) if something ever does happen, a court is really not going to take this line of reasoning very well, so be careful with it... even if in practice it's how you consider it.
I'm completely in favor of building dedicated infrastructure, but I can't do that by myself. (Also, how do you prevent pedestrians from crossing said dedicated infrastructure without looking? Should it be fenced off? But I agree that there are better and worse implementations of dedicated bike lanes.)
What would you suggest cyclists do until that happens? Never go faster than walking speed? Then I can leave my bike at home. Cycle on the road, where cars can hit me, instead of the dedicated bike lane, use of which is often mandatory?
> a court is really not going to take this line of reasoning very well
A court will rule in favor of the pedestrian stepping onto a bike lane without looking getting hit by a bike that's too close to do anything?
> What would you suggest cyclists do until that happens? Never go faster than walking speed? Then I can leave my bike at home. Cycle on the road, where cars can hit me, instead of the dedicated bike lane, use of which is often mandatory?
I don't know where you live but it's quite unusual here to be cycling through areas that have a lot of pedestrians. If the bike lane is a dedicated one, pedestrians are very rarely in it. But yes if all else fails, the road is preferable to the pavement if you're unwilling to cycle slowly enough.
> how do you prevent pedestrians from crossing said dedicated infrastructure without looking?
That's a UX problem. You can also ask how to prevent cars driving on the cycle lane. Which we do in a multitude of ways. You just need to physically communicate segregation and danger.
> A court will rule in favor of the pedestrian stepping onto a bike lane without looking getting hit by a bike that's too close to do anything?
Here, absolutely, if they consider the cyclist is going too fast for the conditions. There's a concept of a hierarchy whereby the more vulnerable class is almost assumed not to be at fault. Same for a car hitting a cyclist, or a motorbike, even.
> If the bike lane is a dedicated one, pedestrians are very rarely in it.
Pedestrians step onto the dedicated bike lane I use to commute on average at least once per way for me.
> But yes if all else fails, the road is preferable to the pavement if you're unwilling to cycle slowly enough.
Of course I'm taking the road if there's no dedicated bike lane. Cycling faster than walking speed on the sidewalk seems reckless to me.
> That's a UX problem. You can also ask how to prevent cars driving on the cycle lane. Which we do in a multitude of ways. You just need to physically communicate segregation.
Yes, but I can only use the bike lane that already exists. Of course I prefer the ones with better UX.
> There's a concept of a hierarchy whereby the more vulnerable class is almost assumed not to be at fault.
Not where I live. You are allowed to e.g. trust adult pedestrians without any visible signs of impairment to not randomly step into the road. Otherwise, driving cars next to sidewalks or crossing intersections would only be possible at walking speed as well.
Of course, if you already see somebody approaching the road, somebody walking unsteadily, visibly intoxicated etc. you are obliged to still brake preemptively. The question here is whether visible noise-cancelling headphones would be considered a similar visible impairment, I suppose.
Personally, I just always assume I haven't been noticed, because ultimately I don't want to run somebody over even if I would be legally in the clear. That's a different story, though.
Our bike lanes are just a line on the sidewalk and pedestrians routinely walk on them, cross the sidewalk in them without looking, let their toddlers/pets run into them, etc. Also, nobody realizes that a bicycle bell means "someone is coming", so they just ignore it as background noise.
I had to mount an airhorn onto my bike. At least people listen to that, though it's so loud I only use it in emergencies.
I would be worried about a horn like this because if they get startled and move into the path of a car on the actual road, or do any other stupid thing that injures them, you're going to have real problems.
Luckily the actual road is many tens of meters away from the bike path, but you're right otherwise.
I get your point about not wanting to reduce speed, but it's worth considering how the law might react in a worse-case scenario.
Here in the UK, there was an infamous case of Charlie Alliston who ended up getting a ridiculous 18 months prison sentence after colliding with a pedestrian who hit her head and subsequently died. He was riding a "fixie" without a front brake and was cycling at around 18mph through some green traffic lights. The pedestrian was crossing the road further on (i.e. not at a junction which is fairly normal) and wasn't paying enough attention, so Charlie shouted at her to get out of his way. He started to reduce speed (rear brake only), but then decided that he could just aim for the gap behind her, but she then reacted to his shouting by stepping backwards into his path.
The point is that the judge awarded such a tough sentence partly due to Charlie not taking all available actions to avoid a collision and also because his bike was illegal to use on the road due to having just one brake. So, if you rely on a bell to clear your path, you could be held liable if they don't respond and you collide.
To be clear, I am still reducing my speed if I don't get positive confirmation that I've been noticed or if there's not enough time for a reaction to even happen.
My bell just gives me the significant improvement of possibly getting a reaction from the pedestrian long before I need to start braking.
However, not everybody does cycle like that. And while legally and ethically dubious, the bell still helps in that case as well.
I don't know, the sentence doesn't sound ridiculous if you're cycliing at 18mph towards someone, without a front brake, and your precaution is "it's OK, I can guess which way they're going to go".
The sentence was very harsh compared to lots of drivers who have killed people in far worse ways. I don't want to excuse him as he was also a complete arsehole on social media after the collision and his cycling was reckless. The lesson is that even if you think you have priority, you have to do all that you can to avoid hitting someone.
Hm yeah, I don't know about drivers' sentences, true.
A car company wanting to divert attention away from the carnage cars cause. Seems a bit suspicious no?
In Skoda's defense, it has a long tradition of making bicycles as well
Skoda is a huge sponsor of professionel cycling.
In the UK, an important market for VW group, there are two types of bicycle, one for the proletariat and the other for the bourgeoisie. Due to the k-shaped economy, the proletariat bicycle died a long time ago, to evolve into the 'Lime bike' in places such as London. In the past, companies such as Raleigh provided excellent proletariat bicycles, and the working man could afford them for his kids and himself. Of course, he would prefer a car, because cars are high status whereas a steel/aluminium bicycle with straight bars is not.
The bourgeoisie bicycle is a relatively recent phenomenon, and anything totally impractical and made of carbon fibre qualifies as bourgeoisie. The bourgeoisie bicycle is also too expensive to lock up in town, plus you need all the clobber to go with it (lycra).
Every bourgeoisie bicycle is owned by a car dependent person. They don't begin their ride at their front door, and their journeys are not useful or with purpose beyond cycling. Their bicycles get strapped onto the back of their car, or placed in the trunk, with wheels removed. These people don't need locks for their bicycles as they have a two tonne steel box to secure their bicycle in. You also get things like power-meters with these bikes, plus the owner has to wear a special polystyrene hat, at the insistence of their mother.
Skoda are selling to those people that spend £5K+ on their toy carbon fibre bicycle. They know the realities of car dependency.
> In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient
I have seen a small kid jump from his father's scooter just when I was overtaking them and they decided to stop because he had seen his grandpa or whoever was that old guy on the other side of the bike lane. His father managed to stop him by grabbing his sweater because I had rung my bell a few seconds before he decided to stop but the kid ended up inches from my bicycle. It was at very low speed, almost walking speed yet hitting a bicycle handlebars head first because you turn around without looking still hurts even if the bicycle his stopped.
If I'm driving and I see a young kid like this I always move out away from the curb if possible. So even if they dart out or fall into the road it's not a problem. Actually, same if I'm passing a bunch of parked cars and there is room, since kids can be stupid and emerge from between them.
If someone truly runs into when you're stationary, I'm not sure anyone really has a problem with you in that scenario.
I don't want people to get hurts, regardless if it is my fault or not. Our world/societes could do with more empathy even if some people do errors.
For the same reason I try to be courteous and try to always say "hello, thank you, have a nice day" even if sometimes I am fuming inside that someone cut my path and I had priority from a legal point of view. I also quietly slow down and give ample distance to someone who cross the street when I am driving even when it is a stupid decision from their part and others would have honked or shouted insults.
I don't think our life and interactions should always be a case of us vs them.
There are a lot of runners on mixed use paths wearing headphones these days. They are an absolute danger to overtaking bikes. A bell they would hear would be useful.
To me, in a path with no priority to the bike, the only danger are cyclist who think they have priority and can overtake people at speed.
Being able to get the attention of runners improves the situation, reducing the speed while circulating on a mixed path solves it completely. If you wanna go fast get on a bike lane or the road.
I don't quite follow, how slowing makes the problem of a runner jumping into the side of your bike go away? If anything it makes it more likely he or she will knock you off the bike since a slower moving bike is less stable and also increases the time you are in the danger zone next to a runner. And runners do jump between the lanes for no apparent reason.
I suppose you feel similarly about the dangers bikes pose to cars?
Running with ANC headphones on is like driving with your eyes closed. Safety is a two-way street and it's everyone's responsibility to maintain a basic level of situational awareness.
Pedestrians are not danger, they are victims! Cyclist should slow down, while performing dangerous overtaking, and not crash into them! Same rules like with cars!
"Do horns and bells really prevent accidents?"
If you are a sane person, absolutely not!! You _try_ the bell, if people react, then you go. Many times it just confuses people or people ignore it.
If you are a high-speed maniac and _rely_ on the bell to clear a path for you... then yeah. But you are then also likely to take great risks in general and will probably be in other accidents...
horns & bells are for pedestrians IME, not cars.
>> properly segregated infrastructure for each class of vehicle.
I ride a lot in traffic and the problem with segregated infrastructure (i.e. bike lanes) is the interfaces and constriction. Pedestrians step off the sidewalk or out of cars into constrained bike lanes all the time and there's no where to go; cars turn across bike lanes with the same problem.
You can't always do it, but if you can eliminate the speed differential I believe riding in traffic is much safer than a bike lane, at least until you get enough bike volume to keep drivers aware. THat's hard to do in most of NA or year round.
You're right, it's certainly not the primary way to prevent accidents. But it helps at the edges, which seems worthwhile.
That's assuming the bells aren't abused too badly, which is a mixed bag, but mostly true.
Bells don’t work on cars, I’ve been using this in SF and motorists respond very quickly
https://loudbicycle.com/
They certainly can, yes. Many crashes can be avoided if both parties slam on the brakes or swerve, not not quite if only one does. Also they're useful in parking lots when some dumbass is about to back right into you.
I concur. Even the best bell in the world may be utterly useless if the pedestrian happens to be deaf. Also, bicycle bells tend to polarise pedestrians - some people think that bells are rude and insisting that peds get out of the way and other people think it's dangerous and rude to not use a bell every time you overtake.
My solution is to still have a tiny bell on my road bike, but instead of using it, call out something like "can I get past, please?" or if an immediate response is required (e.g. ped blindly stepping into the road ahead of me) then yelling "Oi!" can really surprise them and make them notice you. I'm also a fan of using "Beep, beep" if a ped is on cycle infrastructure (active travel infrastructure is probably a better term) and I want to pretend that I'm an impatient driver.
I think the human voice is far superior to a bell as you can tailor the message for the situation and you don't have to move a hand away from the brakes to do so. (Using your voice is also a very good idea when approaching a horse and rider - horses know about humans and don't get freaked out if you call ahead "Morning!" or something cheery and appropriate).
On my bike commute route, I'd lose my voice before the first meeting of the day if I had to use only my voice.
I realised after a few near misses that my voice is by far the lowest latency signal method I have. If a situation suddenly seems dangerous I'll yell. Perhaps not very polite, but far more polite than hitting someone who stepped out in front of me. A bike bell probably adds a second of latency to find the bell. I'd rather use that time to brake.
The bell can be useful as a more general "I'm here" warning. But if there's any actual risk of a collision, yelling and braking are far more effective.
[dead]