It's funny that the EU pretends not to be a sovereign entity or a state in its own right, but then sets up legal frameworks like this. Even in the US, you can't set up a corporation at the federal level: apart from a handful of entities chartered via special acts of Congress, a business entity must exist under the laws of a particular state.
> Even in the US, you can't set up a corporation at the federal level:
This is only because the drafters of the US constitution didn’t think to list corporations law as an enumerated power of Congress - I don’t think they omitted it out of an ideological conviction, simply because nobody thought of it at the time. That said, given SCOTUS’ expansive reading of the interstate commerce clause, there’s a decent chance SCOTUS would let them get away with a federal corporations law, but they’ve never had the political will to attempt a general federal incorporation law
The drafters of the Australian constitution did list corporations law as a power of the federal government-but they were working over a century later, and they studied the US system intently to try to identify what worked and what mistakes to avoid. However, it took until 1989 for a federal corporations law to be enacted, and then the High Court ruled in 1990 that the new federal corporations law was unconstitutional, because the corporations power in the constitution only authorised federal regulation of existing domestic corporations, not the act of incorporating them - however, this was fixed by a federal-state agreement voluntarily ceding corporations law power to the Commonwealth (this is another innovation the Australian constitution has compared to the US - the ability of the federal level to gain new enumerated powers without constitutional amendment, by the states voluntarily agreeing to cede them)
You could setup a European company (SE) for 20 years or so, this is a new kind that solves some of the issues that one had.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societas_Europaea
You can easily hire a person from Ohio to work for your company incorporated in California without having a separate legal entity in Ohio. Not the case in EU.
True but you do have to register with the state of Ohio, and jump through some hoops.
It’s possible to be registered in a state you’ve never been to - how many people have actually been to Delaware or Wyoming - and employ nobody at.
Some countries play this game too - after the Cayman Islands enacted anti money laundering laws, they tried to keep companies with privacy and efficient dispute resolution.
EU is not a sovereign entity or a state but it needs to be and this is one step in that direction. EU eurocrats worked with the people affected of this and put together a proposal and the elected officials of each member state will vote on this.
Anyway, I don't know about the exact wiring of this but an alternative can be to create a virtual country with its own law, sign a trade agreement with the country to give it full access to the EU market and even some special rights and achieve the same effect of getting rid of the regulations and bureaucracy. These arrangements can be very interesting, like the City of London which is like a country inside London that is actually a corporation. Very weird things are possible.
It’s a mix, some competences lie more with the EU, some remain more, or exclusively, with the member states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competences_of_the_European_Un.... Importantly, foreign policy and defense lies more with the member states. In addition, proposals by the European Commission must be approved by the Council (consisting of executives of all member states) in a qualified majority (at least 55% of member states and representing at least 65% of the total EU population) or in some cases unanimously.
Yes, but you can incorporate in any state you want (provided the state allows that).
That means there’s no barrier to movement.
It’d also possible to reincorporate relatively easily.
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Hungary can leave the EU if it wants. Article 50 exists for this.
If it wants to stay in the EU it has to adhere to the bloc rules. It is not forced to stay in the EU (and, in fact, getting rid of Orban would not be such a bad idea). Hungexit when?
Elections are happening soon (April). It's not clear at all Orban will win this round of elections, see e.g. https://apnews.com/article/hungary-orban-magyar-rival-rallie...
Why leave when you can just keep breaking the rules and wait for the EU to kick you out?
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Employers and landlords do that sort of thing all the time. Rent goes up, job descriptions change, return to office is suddenly required. And yeah, you can get a different job or a different home if you don't like it.
> What are you supposed to do when the bloc rules imposed upon you now, are not the ones that were agreed upon when you joined?
Those rules are not conjured from thin air. They are proposed either by EU commission or EU council, and the national governments have direct participation on both, including veto powers.
And ultimately, a country can article 50 if the rules are unacceptable.
> Imagine your landlord or employer changes your contract without your consent and just tells you to walk if you don't like it.
Depending on the country where you live there are regulations, but employers in particular do that all the time.
> I'm old enough to see how the EU of today is not the same it was just 20 years ago.
Age presumably brings wisdom. Not always.
States joining the EU agree to transfer some of their competences to the EU, in exchange for the benefits that being a member brings. They participate democratically in the EU decisions like every other member state. They even have veto powers in some cases. If they feel that it isn’t worth it anymore, they are free to leave.
You are free to leave EU just like any other agreement.
Oh we all saw the true colors of the glorious and open and free-to-leave EU when Brits wanted to leave.
Yes, they were free to leave. No one stopped them from leaving the free trade area and having the exact same status as any other random country in the world. Or did you mean that Uk wanted to leave EU but keep all the good benefits? Like canceling Netflix and bitching about not being able to watch the latest series.
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This didn’t happen. I know you have a fantasy it will be hard to disabuse you of, but that was an issue all of the UK’s own making.
Yes it did happen.
After the referendum, the EU and Bremainers made the 2 following nation-wide elections into single-issue elections. And they burned themselves justifiably from it.
You know that is the problem with the pro EU camp, they tout their opposition as science deniers and worse, yet conveniently pretend hard numbers (ie. election results) don't exist or didn't happen - if it hurts their feelings. It's just intellectual dishonesty through and through.
The EU made UK elections into single-issue ones? Obviously that didn't happen.
I think you're just projecting, to be honest. The "leave the EU" side won; unexpectedly, with no clear vision of what that involved. And then the UK's internal inability to agree resulted in a tumultuous period of internal politics, the result of which is pretty much the outcome we'd've all expected.
Time to get over it, I think.
> Time to get over it, I think.
It seems like you haven't, why else would you deny the facts?
The EU tried to bully the Brits multiple times into staying [1] while its politicians made many thinly veiled threats [2], hoping they were veiled enough so that Bremain could make use of them. Luckily they overstepped with their arrogance.
The Brits noticed and the results were clear:
- The Torys won the UK parliament in a historic landslide in 2019, they broke "red wall" with their main campaign slogan being "Get Brexit done"
- in the European Parliament election in the United Kingdom prior to that the Brexit Party won almost half of all seats, >30% of the vote, the highest percentage of any party for the last 20 years
The EU could have handled this differently, but their behavior made Bremain so toxic that even Labour essentially gave up on it. As indicated by the breach of the "red wall"
Get over it
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[1] The EU threats:
- The EU insisted on a strict sequencing of talks: citizens' rights, financial settlement ("divorce bill"), and the Irish border before any discussion of a future trade relationship. This was a deliberate pressure tactic
- The "Divorce Bill" – The EU demanded roughly €39-100 billion (estimates varied wildly) as a financial settlement – "leaving has a price." Michel Barnier (EU Chief Negotiator) insisted that this was non-negotiable.
- Irish Border / Backstop – designed to be a near-inescapable commitment if no trade deal was reached. This killed Theresa May's deal in Parliament three times.
- Granting Article 50 Extensions: Each extension (April 2019, October 2019) came with conditions and public EU reluctance — framed as a favor to the UK. This had a soft public opinion effect domestically in the UK
- No "Cherry Picking" Doctrine: Designed to make voters understand that a "soft Brexit" was not actually on offer, pressuring the Remain camp's argument.
[2] Key EU officials made pointed public statements:
- Jean-Claude Juncker (Commission President): Repeatedly warned the UK was underestimating the complexity. Said the negotiations would be "very, very, very difficult." Also warned in 2016 that there would be no informal negotiations before Article 50 was triggered — a rebuff to UK hopes for a soft start.
- Guy Verhofstadt (EU Parliament Brexit coordinator): Was openly confrontational, frequently stating the UK was living in "a fantasy world" regarding what Brexit could deliver.
- Donald Tusk (European Council President): Made the famous 2019 comment about a "special place in hell" for those who promoted Brexit without a plan — widely seen as a deliberate provocation to harden British public debate.
- Emmanuel Macron: Repeatedly said the UK could reverse Brexit at any time, keeping "Remain" psychologically alive as an option.
- Michel Barnier: "I am not hearing any whistling, just the clock ticking." July 2017 — A sharp comeback after Boris Johnson told the EU to "go whistle" over the divorce bill.
Yes we did, the UK just left.
That obviously makes no sense. A club isn’t a sovereign entity just because it has rules. Hungary is free to leave the EU and set a border policy that conflict with EU law if it wishes - but if it wants to remain part of that organisation, particularly one that has open borders thorough The Schengen area, then of course it needs to follow the rules.
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Are you really conflating the idea of Schegen with "keeping unlocked doors to your house"?
Very quick way to show you are not willing to engage in ideas in good faith.
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No, EU is not the root of the problem, whatever the problem is. For example, countries are stronger, more resilient and business is more effective together than everyone trying to do it alone. And of course the EU is not perfect and there is room for improvement.
In my experience, one concrete problem is that so many people misunderstand or are unaware of basic things about the EU and why EU even exists. With the former I mean things like how the EU Parliament is put together, the relation of the EU Commission to the EU Parliament, how is the President of the EU Commission chosen (no, it's not "undemocratic"), what does Schengen mean, what is the Euro and WHY does it exist, why was there legislation which mentioned the curvature of cucumbers, and so on.
As there is no big picture, or it is rejected due to ideological reasons, the lack of knowledge and misunderstandings then manifest as fear of the unknown (=the EU). At this point, these people become against everything in EU: whatever new things are proposed from the EU side, it is somehow "lousy", "bad", "failing", "won't work anyway", and so forth. Any EU company has "bottom-barrel products" and "can't succeed", euro cannot work between countries, Europe is "weak" and "gay" and "collapsing".
Also, some people look at an individual member state and confuse it with the whole EU. For example, the nuclear power stance of Germany is seen as an EU-mandated position and then the whole EU is seen to be against nuclear power. This can also work in reverse: Poland sends generators to Ukraine, well done Poland and why is the weak and failing EU doing nothing (except the generators were from RescEU stores, and one such store was located in Poland, so EU was sending them).
When people understand what the EU is and know the basics, of course they might still disagree with things, that's normal, but at least the arguments are more factual.
It sounds like a system with little democratic buy-in.
It's not universally so, but is more like that in some parts of Europe.
It's mostly a branding issue, in my opinion.
As UK showed, leaving EU is hard and EU will fight you on it as well as seek to penalize you
EU didn't fight UK. UK fought EU to not lose their exorbitantly privileged status and benefits while leaving the club itself. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too. When they realized and decided that they will get none of the benefits, the finalization of the exit took merely weeks. EU is a huge privilege / opportunity for smaller countries. EU-6 doesn't need the other ones to be the second biggest market. If Hungarians want out, it can be done by the end of 2026 and you can enjoy being a proper vassal to neo-Soviets by 2027.
Press made it pretty clear one of the EU’s goals was to ensure nobody did this again. That fits the word “punishment.”
>EU-6 doesn't need the other ones to be the second biggest market.
That's where you're wrong. Where would German industry be today without the labor, suppliers, export market and cheap energy imports from the other non-EU-6 members? Especially after they denuclearized and derussified their energy sector and nuked their birthrates, and so rely on importing energy and workers from everyone to stay afloat. You can't claim you don't need them while you're importing their energy, labor, resources, doctors, etc. You can't treat your country like an economic zone, while ignoring all the economic transactions.
Germany had its biggest boom when there was no Schengen agreement. Most of the German labor came from Turkey, not from the smaller and less developed EU countries. Its immigration policy was targetted and more selective even. Germany doesn't import much energy from less developed EU countries either: https://www.iea.org/countries/germany/energy-mix#where-does-... most of them come from EU-6 and UK which makes sense since those countries have technology and resources to produce extra capacity. It's the same deal with France with its former and current colonies. They truly do not need to be in a union with the less developed countries to get those benefits. Same for Canada, Canada doesn't need to enter a union with a less developed country to get lots of immigration.
I'm not saying that Germany (or other EU-6) doesn't need immigration. I'm an immigrant in Germany and I do support it for qualified and even non-qualified jobs. However, it is not a clear cut benefit to be in a union with emigrant source countries either.
The current setup of EU is a toxic relationship for both sides though, it is a benevolent colonization setup. Allowing smaller post-Soviet countries without significantly investing and improving their economies and industries and their political stability before ascension, ended up very badly for the other ones. EU-6 siphoned out all the labor, younger population and educated classes of post-Soviet countries, so now their populations are mostly old, resented people, the biggest businesses owned by EU-6 for only cheap labor. Those populations are really susceptible to authoritarian overtakes and the authoritarian governments like Hungary and Slovakia of today and Poland of past can block significant decisions with the veto right.
EU is very beneficial for smaller countries however at a significant cost for both sides in a bad way. It worked best when the candidate / new member nation was already a significantly developed and industrialized part of Soviet Union like Baltics or Poland (for the most part, they are not 100% clear yet).
>Germany had its biggest boom when there was no Schengen agreement.
I'm talking about the state of the German economy of today, how it's deeply tied to non-Eu-6 countries in a big way. Their past economic success of a lone wolf, is irrelevant today when they're struggling. Different times. China wasn't even on the radar as a competitor back then and German cars were all the rave worldwide back then. Times have changed.
> Its immigration policy was targetted and more selective even.
So why doesn't it want to be as selective anymore today? You know, like back their economic boom days you mentioned before.
>They truly do not need to be in a union with the less developed countries to get those benefits.
Then what's the point of the EU if they can get everything they need without a union? Why doesn't Germany and France just leave the EU and take their money with them?
Because you only focus on the argument of the German EU integration being all about importing cheap labor with your argument, but my argument is beyond that. For example, countless suppliers to Germany economy are in Poland, Romania, Slovakia, etc. And such trade and IP collaboration NEEDS an union. Same for defence parts for French companies that are now made in post-communist countries.
>The current setup of EU is a toxic relationship for both sides though, it is a benevolent colonization setup.
It wasn't always like that though. Only in the last 10 or so years did the EU start to be authoritarian towards member states.
>EU-6 siphoned out all the labor, younger population and educated classes of post-Soviet countries
True, but guess what, for the first time ever, more post-Communist EU migrants are now leaving Germany and returning home, than the number migrating to Germany from post-Communist members. Reasons are many, but it seems like the days of Germany (and others) being the lands of milk and honey are over.
>Those populations are really susceptible to authoritarian overtakes
And German population ISN'T?! They just prefer a different flavor of authoritarianism, one with nicer PR, where the jackboots are eco friendly, as they take you to court for "hateful" Tweets, stuff that doesn't happen in the post-Communist states.
>authoritarian governments like Hungary and Slovakia of today and Poland
Why are they considered authoritarian? Because they do what their voters want and not what the EU wants?
>can block significant decisions with the veto right.
Good? Shouldn't nations be able to have a say themselves from EU decisions that might negatively impact them?
I didn't hear many people calling the Austrian regime autocratic for constantly vetoing Romania and Bulgaria's Schengen memberships, despite those countries having met the criterias long before.
So the "autocratic" label keeps being applied very inconsistently across the EU. Dare I say hypocritical.
It was super easy for UK to leave EU? No one tried to stop them. The ”hard” part was that they wanted to keep some benefits of the membership after canceling the membership.
The EU will fight you? If Texas tried to secede from the US, the government would send in the military. The EU "fought" them by not giving them a sweetheart trade deal on their way out the door?
It was only hard because UK wanted to stop immediately to participate to budget while continuing to benefit from already agreed multi-years policies.
Of course leaving the EU is hard. Membership has a significant effect on regulation and governance. The fact that something is hard also doesn’t mean you aren’t free to do it.
It being “fought” or countries being “penalised” is a matter of opinion but not one I share.
How, exactly, did the EU penalize the UK for leaving?
Please, elaborate, I'll be waiting.
That is incorrect. Leaving EU is super easy. Leaving written accords with USA is hard, and that's what UK tried to pull off. Since the oligarchs pushing for EU exit to hide their black money were dumb, they forgot they have an agreement with USA making a UK-Ireland border transparent. And they basically spent 4 years trying to either tear down a USA deal or EU law, without having any leverage for either, since they are dumb. Since there no such things in other EU countries, their leave can happen much faster.
Sounds like EU deliberately evil?