First, x86-64 also has “extensions” such as avx, avx2, and avx512. Not all “x86-64” CPUs support the same ones. And you get things like svm on AMD and avx on Intel. Remember 3DNow?
X86-64 also has “profiles” which tell you what extensions should be available. There is x86-64v1 and x86-64v4 with v2 and v3 in the middle.
RVA23 offers a very similar feature-set to x86-64v4.
You do not end up with a mess of extensions. You get RVA23. Yes, RVA23 represents a set of mandatory extensions. The important thing is that two RVA23 compliant chips will implement the same ones.
But the most important point is that you cannot “just use x86-64”. Only Intel and AMD can do that. Anybody can build a RISC-V chip. You do not need permission.
No, you really can’t. For some OSS, on hardware that has an OS supported by that software, with a compiler that supports that target and the options you want, and in some cases where the OSS has been written to support those options, you can compile it. Otherwise you are just out of luck.
I don't really understand your position here. Compiler availability isn't really that big of a deal, even on obscure or proprietary platforms. Why would there be "some cases where the OSS has been written to support those options"?
>Anybody can build a RISC-V chip. You do not need permission.
No, anybody can’t build a RISC-V chip. That’s the same mistake OSS proponents make. Just because something is open source doesn’t mean bugs will be found. And just because bugs are found doesn’t mean they will be fixed. The vast majority of people can’t do either.
The number of people who can design a chip implementation of the RISC-V ISA is much, much smaller, and the number who can get or own a FAB to manufacture the chips smaller still. You don’t need permission to use the ISA, but that is not the only gate.
Because the ISA is not encumbered the way other ISAs are legally, and there are use cases where the minimal profile is fine for the sake of embedded whatever vs the cost to implement the extensions
I'm not a lawyer but I would assume its copyright. Kind of like API in software. In software somehow this does not apply most of the time. But it seems in hardware this is very real. But I would appreciate a lawyer jumping in.
I know for example that Berkley when thinking pre-RISC-V that they had a deal with Intel about using x86-64 for research. But they were not able to share the designs.
I don't know why there aren't independent X86-64 manufacturers. Patents on the extensions maybe? But as I understand copyright, APIs can't be copyrighted so it's not that.
First, x86-64 also has “extensions” such as avx, avx2, and avx512. Not all “x86-64” CPUs support the same ones. And you get things like svm on AMD and avx on Intel. Remember 3DNow?
X86-64 also has “profiles” which tell you what extensions should be available. There is x86-64v1 and x86-64v4 with v2 and v3 in the middle.
RVA23 offers a very similar feature-set to x86-64v4.
You do not end up with a mess of extensions. You get RVA23. Yes, RVA23 represents a set of mandatory extensions. The important thing is that two RVA23 compliant chips will implement the same ones.
But the most important point is that you cannot “just use x86-64”. Only Intel and AMD can do that. Anybody can build a RISC-V chip. You do not need permission.
It's actually worst because intel is introducing APX now as well.
1. Yes, but most of the code would run on anything older than 2007. 20 years of stable ISA.
2. Also, fundamentally all modern CPUs are still 64-bit version of 80386. MMU, protection, low level details are all same.
This isn't really accurate, lots of commercial software is now compiled for newer x86 64 extensions.
If you're using OSS it doesn't really matter as you can compile it for whatever you want.
No, you really can’t. For some OSS, on hardware that has an OS supported by that software, with a compiler that supports that target and the options you want, and in some cases where the OSS has been written to support those options, you can compile it. Otherwise you are just out of luck.
I don't really understand your position here. Compiler availability isn't really that big of a deal, even on obscure or proprietary platforms. Why would there be "some cases where the OSS has been written to support those options"?
>Anybody can build a RISC-V chip. You do not need permission.
No, anybody can’t build a RISC-V chip. That’s the same mistake OSS proponents make. Just because something is open source doesn’t mean bugs will be found. And just because bugs are found doesn’t mean they will be fixed. The vast majority of people can’t do either.
The number of people who can design a chip implementation of the RISC-V ISA is much, much smaller, and the number who can get or own a FAB to manufacture the chips smaller still. You don’t need permission to use the ISA, but that is not the only gate.
I think it was clear that they were saying anybody is permitted to build a RISC-V chip, not that anybody has the skills.
> The number of people who can design a chip implementation
Thankfully you don't have to start from scratch. There are loads of open source RISC-V chip implementations you can start from.
> get or own a FAB to manufacture the chips
There is always FPGAs and also this:
https://fossi-foundation.org/blog/2020-06-30-skywater-pdk
Because the ISA is not encumbered the way other ISAs are legally, and there are use cases where the minimal profile is fine for the sake of embedded whatever vs the cost to implement the extensions
> why not just use x86-64?
Uh, because you can't? It's not open in any meaningful sense.
The original amd64 came out in 2003. Any patents on the original instruction set have long expired, and even more so for 32-bit x86.
Its not about patents. Believe what you want but there is a reason nobody else is doing x86 or ARM chips unless they are allowed by the owner.
You're probably right. It would be helpful to say what the reason is, if it's not patents.
I'm not a lawyer but I would assume its copyright. Kind of like API in software. In software somehow this does not apply most of the time. But it seems in hardware this is very real. But I would appreciate a lawyer jumping in.
I know for example that Berkley when thinking pre-RISC-V that they had a deal with Intel about using x86-64 for research. But they were not able to share the designs.
I don't know why there aren't independent X86-64 manufacturers. Patents on the extensions maybe? But as I understand copyright, APIs can't be copyrighted so it's not that.
The original ARM 32 stuff is clearly out of patents and is not being copied. And it doesn't require new extensions to be commercially viable.