The code is what it does. The comments should contain what it's supposed to do.
Even if you give them equal roles, self-documenting code versus commented code is like having data on one disk versus having data in a RAID array.
Remember: Redundancy is a feature. Mismatches are information. Consider this:
// Calculate the sum of one and one
sum = 1 + 2;
You don't have to know anything else to see that something is wrong here. It could be that the comment is outdated, which has no direct effects and is easily solved. It could be that this is a bug in the code. In any case it is information and a great starting point for looking into a possible problem (with a simple git blame). Again, without needing any context, knowledge of the project or external documentation.
My take on developers arguing for self-documenting code is that they are undisciplined or do not use their tools well. The arguments against copious inline comments are "but people don't update them" and "I can see less of the code".
> Redundancy is a feature. Mismatches are information. Consider this:
Respectfully, if someone wrote code like this, I wouldn't want to work with them. I mean next step is "I copy paste code instead of writing functions, and in the comment above I mention all the other copies, so that it's easy to check that they are all doing the same thing redundantly".
> The arguments against copious inline comments are "but people don't update them" and "I can see less of the code".
Well no, that's not my argument. I have been navigating code for 20 years and in good codebases, comments are rare and describe something "surprising". Good code is hardly surprising.
My problem with "literate programming" (which means "add a lot of comments in the implementation details") is that I find it hard to trust developers who genuinely cannot understand unsurprising code without comments. I am fine with a junior needing more time to learn, but after a few years if a developer cannot do it, it concerns me.
You did not engage with my main arguments. You should still do so.
1. Redundancy: "The code is what it does. The comments should contain what it's supposed to do. [...] You don't have to know anything else to see that something is wrong here." and specifically the concrete trivial (but effective) example.
2. "My take on developers arguing for self-documenting code is that they are undisciplined or do not use their tools well. The arguments against copious inline comments are "but people don't update them" and "I can see less of the code"."
> Respectfully, if someone wrote code like this, I wouldn't want to work with them. I mean next step is "I copy paste code [...]
This is an nonsensical slippery slope fallacy. In no way does that behavior follow from placing many comments in code. It also says nothing about the clearly demonstrated value of redundancy.
> I have been navigating code for 20 years and in good codebases, comments are rare and describe something "surprising".
Your definition of good here is circular. No argument on why they are good codebases. Did you measure how easy they were to maintain? How easy it was to onboard new developers? How many bugs it contained? Note also that correlation != causation: it might very well be that the good codebases you encountered were solo-projects by highly capable motivated developers and the comment-rich ones were complicated multi-developer projects with lots of developer churn.
> My problem with "literate programming" [...] is that I find it hard to trust developers who genuinely cannot understand unsurprising code without comments.
This is gatekeeping code by making it less understandable and essentially an admission that code with comments is easier to understand. I see the logic of this, but it is solving a problem in the wrong place. Developer competence should not be ascertained by intentionally making the code worse.
You talk as if you had scientific proof that literate programming is objectively better, and I was the weirdo contradicting it without bringing any scientific proof.
Fact is, you don't have any proof at all, you just have your intuition and experience. And I have mine.
> It also says nothing about the clearly demonstrated value of redundancy.
Clearly demonstrated, as in your example of "Calculate the sum of one and one"? I wouldn't call that a clear demonstration.
> This is gatekeeping code by making it less understandable
I don't feel like I am making it less understandable. My opinion is that a professional worker should have the required level of competence (otherwise they are not a professional in that field). In software engineering, we feed code to a compiler, and we trust that the compiler makes sure that the machine executes the code we write. The role of the software engineer is to understand that code.
Literate programming essentially says "I am incapable of writing code that is understandable, ever, so I always need to explain it in a natural language". Or "I am incapable of reading code, so I need it explained in a natural language". My experience is that good code is readable by competent software engineers without explaining everything. But not only that: code is more readable when it is more concise and not littered with comments.
> and essentially an admission that code with comments is easier to understand.
I disagree again. Code with comment is easier to understand for the people who cannot understand it without the comments. Now the question is, again: are those people competent to handle code professionally? Because if they don't understand the code without comments, many times they will just have to trust the comments. If they used the comments to actually understand the code, pretty quickly they would be competent enough to not require the comments. Which means that at the point where they need it, they are not yet professionals, but rather apprentices.