Sure seems that way. I don't really see how this military action is justified from a US perspective. Or even from an Israeli one. The most likely justification is that the leadership of the US and Israel are a little bit unhinged and want a war to distract from domestic issues.
Not only is it unjustified, attacking during a negotiation seriously undermines future negotiations. This is a massive self face punching exercise.
Israel has even killed a Hamas negotiator in 2024 during deliberations, and attempted to kill another one in 2025.
I mean they literally shot a child and watched him bleed to death while creating a wall to prevent an ambulance getting to him soooo.
But for some reason the Western world only sees the evil things Hamas does and handwaves IDF.
They're both evil.
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpqwv9vvzx9o
Though I suppose you could say he's lying, it's staged etc. In the same way that the religious attribute every good thing to their god and every bad thing to their devil.
Was there really a negotiation? It seems like US is giving them an ultimatum, stop nuclear enrichment and ballistic missile production or well hit you
"This is America, you can always cut a deal"
- Dutch
Don't fool yourself and others, attacking during negotiation is part of the negotiation.
Netanjahu is old and wants to secure his 'legacy' by being credited for dismantling Iran, knowing Trump will back him both because he's been fed BS and because the Israelis have enough kompromat to sink him. There's no 'rational' justification for this attack, only madness and huge egos.
What kompromat would even affect Trump at this point? He's been proven to be deep in bed with a literal pedophilic cabal of elites, what on Earth else could they have on this guy that would affect anything?
A literal video of him doing what most of us think he likely did with this pedophilic cabal of elites could likely still do some damage.
Or perhaps there's still worse things we cannot imagine? With these people, one can never be too sure.
Well, it's plausibly justified because the US considers a strong regional ally like Israel a valuable asset to have in the Middle East and if Israel is a regional hegemon [1] then all the better.
There have been many arguments that the US' support of Israel goes against US interests [2], but that really makes no sense. It's not just Trump who has to be convinced to start a war for Israel, it's the entire defense establishment in the US.
And also in Israel. If fighting half a dozen wars all at once was really that bad for Israel, surely, someone would have put a stop in it.
Surely.
_____________
[1] Got that term from J. Mearsheimer, if you were wondering.
[2] Particularly the Tucker Carlson - Judge Napolitano - Col. Daniel Davies continuum of mostly conservative podcast hosts. Or those are the ones I follow closely anyway. They're all convinced it's all "because of the lobby".
Why is Israel a valuable asset?
[flagged]
If you're talking about Israel, why choose to move there then? Few Israelis have long-running roots in the country, it's mostly recent immigrants or their children.
This feels a lot like the people building a home next to an airport and then complaining about the noise.
Besides, are you sure "your house" wasn't stolen from someone? That's hardly uncommon in Israel.
Israel is 80 years old, I was born here and I’m 25 years old. The funny thing is my parents immigrated from Russia so you probably won’t want me there either (me too). Your argument is bad.
I feel like you're just repeating my point here rather than criticizing my argument in any way.
Why should anyone be opposed to you living in Russia?
Because I’d have been used as a cannon fodder in the war in Ukraine. And then you’d criticize me for being a Russian soldier.
Anyway your argument is bad in multiple layers, I don’t have any other passport and I live in a home that is younger than 80 years as most Israelis do
> I don’t have any other passport
You don't need one, it is very easy to emigrate to many western countries as an Israeli passport holder. There's also a chance you qualify for one of the EU citizenship schemes for jewish descendants. You don't have to choose to live in an apartheid state.
At least if you only held a Russian passport you could plausibly claim that it's somewhat difficult to move anywhere nice.
> I live in a home that is younger than 80 years as most Israelis do
I guess that makes it better. Truly, a shining example of Israeli moral superiority.
I can easily find ownership records going back more than 500 years for the land I live on. Odds are it'd be trivial to go even further.
What about the land you live on? Who owned it 100 years ago and how'd it end up in your possession? How do you think those records would tend to look in Israel? What kind of stories do you think they would tell? Would it be a good look for Israeli people?
My grand grandparent had a factory and a mansion in Poland , which was stolen by the nazis. My family moved with 0 assets to Israel to rebuild themselves. Will you please pay me the sum lost with dividends so I can return to Poland?
The entire continent of North America changed hands in the last 250 years many European lands changed hands in the last 150 years, some Israeli lands changed hands in the last 80 years, why should only we open our records?
The Palestinian people exist and have very real and justified grievances.
There's hardly anything comparable in Europe.
The Romani people. Perhaps even Jews, depending on attitudes towards Israel.
Probably other groups who are even less visible, so we don't know about the challenges they face. The 19th century push for nation states has marginalized and tried to erase many groups.
I think it's pretty telling how Europeans treat those people now, and how Israeli people treat Palestinians today.
Some of us learned to be better.
wake me up when Spain has let their minorities a path for self determination and when you do something about the savages that loot and destroy everything in your previous held colonies like Wagner and the Russian African Corpus
Ah, so now Israel treats Palestinians like Spain treats Catalans?
I think we might live on different planets.
Ok, I’m for building them a better future, we’re on agreement in that
Do you disagree that there's a good chance that by choosing to live and pay taxes in Israel you're going to have a net negative effect on the future of the Palestinians over your lifetime?
You hold me to inhuman standards you do not uphold in your personal life. The current government is bad for me and bad for the Palestinians I strive for a better one, and I’m here to stay
I absolutely do hold myself to the same standards of not living and paying taxes in Israel.
Thanks god, what a contribution to the world! Hope you having a nice time in this historic tiny minuscule moment of peace your continent is having, while you sit on an economy based on generations that robbed entire continents naked and then benefited from child labor of those continents! But in this tiny point of peace you don’t dedicate any portion of your life to help 3rd world countries or any global causes like the environment But tell me to move one of your countries that have right wing parties rising in the polls because some tiny percent of your population became Muslim. You will watch with me your politicians throw away this high morality you hold the second a Russian missile hit the ground in Western Europe and you with them
> You will watch with me your politicians throw away this high morality you hold the second a Russian missile hit the ground in Western Europe and you with them
What are you implying? It's totally fine to defend yourself against aggressors.
The problem is that in the Israel-Palestine conflict, Israel has always been the aggressor.
Oh Drop down from your high horse, let’s ask you what have you done for example for the environment have you quit your job to join a cause to for the environment? Have you stopped buying things from china? Have you completely stopped consuming fast fashion?
I won’t leave my friends and family and rather fight for the values of this country from here
> I won’t leave my friends and family and rather fight for the values of this country from here
The nazis justified the holocaust as a "defense of their values" as well.
Nazi values are not my values, nor is any sort of death
I can't commment on your values because I don't know you but I can confidently say that zionist values are nazi values. Just listen to your own government leaders like Ben gvir or likund writings. literally word for word sounds like something Hitler and leaders of the nazi party would have said with [search replace arayan -> jew.]
here's some quotes. please tell me, hitler or gvir
"We have to speak honestly. That there are many, many ___ – I didn't say all the ___, but a lot of __ who are not loyal to the ____. Undoubtedly, their vote is endangering ____, … Any normal country would not let them vote. Unfortunately, we are allowing hundreds of thousands of people who are disloyal to ____ to vote in the elections... "
"I am unequivocally against executing the ____ murderer of ____ and in favor of killing the ____ murderers of _____"
"There are many ____ who are disloyal and those who are not loyal should not be here.""
Marine La Pen has almost won the elections in France? Is all French society rotten?
I rather dislike her, but on it's worst day a Marine Le Pen-led government in France wouldn't even come close to doing anything nearly as bad as Israel does every day.
>Oh Drop down from your high horse, let’s ask you what have you done for example for the environment have you quit your job to join a cause to for the environment? Have you stopped buying things from china? Have you completely stopped consuming fast fashion?
I hope this particularly weak whataboutism helps you feel better about your indefensible moral position.
> fight for the values of this country from here
Apartheid being one of the core values worth fighting for, apparently.
Haha you literally asking me to leave my roots and friends and family and I have a weak arguments? Your arguments detached from reality.
I cut my salary to be involved politically, I believe in a future of peace. You can rest assured I engage in what’s right far more than you
> I believe in a future of peace
What does that look like to you?
I'm sure Hamas would say the same, it's just about how that peace is reached and how it looks like in the end. The typical Israeli vision of peace isn't any better than the typical Palestinian vision of peace.
I’m not a politician nor all the information is available to me on what can be done and what not
My moral compass says the following - 1. First of all securing our own democracy from all the internal authoritarian movements 2. Creating a situation were any Palestinian can live respectfully, feed their family and get education
From there state decision should be far more easier.
> 1. First of all securing our own democracy from all the internal authoritarian movements
perfectly reasonable ask. 3 years ago, I would have been perfectly fine if they demonstrated interest in that. Instead we have people like Ben gvir openly spout ethnosupremacist vitriol that would make hitler blush. Now my instagram is full of that man touring prisons where he brags about executing people who clearly show signs of torture. (and this is what they are COMFORTABLE SHOWING) between that and his approval ratings (60% of israelis want to relocate Palestinians somewhere else Its clear that the whole society is rotten from the top down.
frankly, I just want this madness to end.
> First of all securing our own democracy from all the internal authoritarian movements
Is that possible? Especially given the birth rate differences between the genuine religious nutjobs and normal people?
Peace for Hamas is eradicating all the Jews.
Peace for Israelis is coexistence. Look at egypt or Jordan for reference.
So why hasn't Israel just been granting all Palestinians citizenship?
It's not really about coexistence, is it? Rather than existing together, it's at best about existing separately.
>Peace for Hamas is eradicating all the Jews.
Which is a perfectly natural position considering the historic relationship here.
Why? First of all, we tried to give citizenship to Palestinians in East Jerusalem, they refuse.
Second, are you suggesting to annex Gaza and th West Bank, and giving them citizenship? That means the come election, Hamas would be the biggest party in the Knesset, revoke all democratic rights, and create a sharia state. That will be the end of the only democracy in the Middle East.
> Why should anyone be opposed to you living in Russia?
I don't know. Why did the Cossacks oppose Jews living in Russia?
Founded 80 years ago on stolen land.
Your parents "immigrated" from Russia to steal land. You should be blaming your parents. Your argument is bad.
Is this what every American tell themselves when they wake up in the morning? Or that what every Arab says to himself outside of Yemen, Saudi and Oman?
Yes every morning I wake up and think, why are my tax dollars going towards a parasitic entity who has taken complete control over our government to fight it's wars for them when we can barely afford basic necessities at home.
Yeah that Venezuela, Iraq and Afghanistan things are definitive proof all Americans wars are fought because of Israel
So Texas should be returned to Mexico, right?
This works so much better when there are living people who care.
So we just need to wait until people stop caring?
I mean, by the letter of things I am assuming that Jason is supporting the genocide of Palestinians.
Nobody living would care anymore, I guess.
> I mean, by the letter of things I am assuming that Jason is supporting the genocide of Palestinians.
> Nobody living would care anymore, I guess.
You might want to brush up on HN's guidelines if you think that these comments are acceptable here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.htmlI often find that when I'm criticising something to be specific about what; in this case, which guideline you think I am in violation of.
Given the quote from Jason:
> This works so much better when there are living people who care.
What's the strongest interpretation of this given the context?
There's two ways to make this a reality:
1) Stop them caring
2) Stop them living
Given that the international community has been pushing hard for nearly a century for option 1; I'm guessing Jason means option 2.
I'm not sure, maybe you can find a way to express it without breaking HN guidelines.
Your accusation was way off-base and deliberately offensive. You are capable of making the same point without stooping down the hierarchy of disagreement, so do it.
I am, let's leave my comment for the mods then.
This is your answer? Just leave my country? Well if it’s so bad for the Palestinians here why won’t they just leave as well?
It was their country before you guys showed up with guns and kicked them out.
The only reason it still exists is because of a massive propaganda machine designed to misrepresent the whole situation to the American people who's tax dollars are bankrolling it.
Ah! We’re going with history. Awesome. This country was Jewish before Islam even existed, according to many, many, many archeological findings. So is your position is to exile all non Jews from Israel?
The majority of you are descendents of european converts cosplaying as middleasterners.
That said, I support jews who were there before 1950s and the ones who are actually willing to make peace with palestinans and live alongside without an apartheid ethnostate. They are welcome to live in Israel and I wish them peace.
The rest of you who are defending or taking part in this genocide should absolutely be exiled.
that answer your question?
Amazing answer, all wrong.
Jews maintained their tradition and lineage for 2 thousand years. So much so that you can identify European Jewish heritage with a DNA test.
Second, half of the Israeli Jews were ethnically cleansed from Arabic and Muslim countries.
And thank you for having the 1950 cutoff, since my family came to Israel before that.
>Second, half of the Israeli Jews were ethnically cleansed from Arabic and Muslim countries.
And they should rightly blame European Jews for inciting this.
That this would happen as a response to the actions European Jews were taking in Palestine was completely predictable, but they didn't really care.
Are you blaming Jews for being ethnically cleansed?
> Second, half of the Israeli Jews were ethnically cleansed from Arabic and Muslim countries.
And the solution to that was to create an apartheid state where you forced palestinians to live as second class citizens in their ancestral home?
Last I checked, there are plenty of jews in morocco and Iran. I've met a few.
> And thank you for having the 1950 cutoff, since my family came to Israel before that.
Glad that you found a loophole that lets you defend literal genocide while clinging to your land claim as if that was the part I had a major problem with. you certainly got me there.
You created the cutoff rule, not me.
Plenty Moroccan Jews in Morocco - 300,000 in 1950, 2,250 in 2026.
Iran - 150,000 in 1950, 15,000 in 2026.
If you agree that 90% leaving is not ethnic cleansing, than say the same for Palestinians.
> You created the cutoff rule, not me.
Given a choice between saying you don't support the genocide of the palestinian people and being there before the 1950's, you chose the later. you do understand how that makes you look right? like I'm shocked at your lack of self awareness here.
You are perfectly welcome to be a racist piece of shit. its your right I guess. but don't turn around and act like you're the victim when everyone hates you.
> Plenty Moroccan Jews in Morocco - 300,000 in 1950, 2,250 in 2026.
> Iran - 150,000 in 1950, 15,000 in 2026.
Its definitely ethnic cleansing and it shouldn't have happened either. I wish we stood up to stop it back then. I didn't say anything about it back then because I wasn't alive back then to speak out against it. I'm alive now and THIS genocide that your people are committing is what I'm speaking out against because Im against genocide. I know there are other genocides going around in the world but this one is being funded with MY tax dollars.
So here’s the incredible part. Everybody cares about the Palestinians well being, but they dont care about offering reparations for the Jews.
I don’t see you calling all Muslim and European countries to return all stolen land and assets to Jews, and promising them full rights.
So for Palestinians - we have to fix whats been done.
For Jews - its history and we can’t fix it.
Palestinians literally need to ask you people for permission in order to leave.
You can just leave, you have a decent passport and can easily move to Europe where you don't have to worry about Iranian missiles.
First of all, I literally can’t. I can only get a tourist visa which is valid for 60 days.
Second, Israel tried to negotiate with countries to move willing gazans, but most countries refused. And everyone called it ethnic cleansing.
You probably never lived in a democracy.
Like Iran? Or Gaza? Or Ramallah? Or Lebanon? Or Syria? Or turkey?
Like people who live in Iran or did you live in Gaza? Average joes pay the price. Bibi, on the other hand, needs to keep any war going lest he some day goes to trial.
I’m willing to pay the price to achieve peace. I know I have defense and fortifications (and if your in Europe, you most likely have the same defenses) and can endure. Iran and Gaza have 0 defenses, and yet the chose to start a war.
This endless self-victimization is so unbecoming.
Having a ballistic missile land on my house - self victimizing.
Creating a totally new definition for refugees which can be inheritable - not self victimizing?
Learning from the best! The middle east spirit