When I was in sixth grade I found out (I am not sure how actually) that I didn’t have to say the pledge if I didn’t want to. I didn’t (and don’t) believe in God, and I didn’t believe in the “under God” part of the pledge, so I decided that I wouldn’t stand for the pledge anymore.
This was an extremely conservative area, and so my teachers were very upset. I told them I don’t have to say the pledge if I don't want (and I believe I had even memorized the specific court case with the Jehova's Witnesses about it). This went on for a week, until I was eventually sent to the principal's office for it.
The principal asked why I wouldn't just say it, and I told him because I don't believe in God and I don't have to. He said "well let's just see what your parents see about that". He picked up the phone and called my house, and my dad answered.
The situation was explained, and then my dad said "why is he in trouble again? I'm pretty sure he doesn't have to say it if he doesn't want to."
The principal responded back with "well sir, it's very disrespectful if he--".
My dad interrupted and said "it doesn't matter if it's respectful, if he doesn't have to say it then he doesn't have to say it. You should probably send him back to class". I went back to class and nothing that day came from it at school.
I was slightly afraid that I would get in trouble when I got home. I knew my dad had fought for me but I thought that he might have just wanted to make sure I don't get into any official trouble, so when I got home I was prepared for a lecture and maybe being sent to my room.
My dad sat me down and said "You're not in trouble, you did what you thought was right, but why does it really matter if you have to say the pledge? It'd probably be easier if you just said it" and I quickly responded back with "because I don't believe in God and I don't think I should be forced to say it."
My dad basically said that if this important to me, then he will support me. He wrote a note explaining that he doesn't have an issue with me not saying it if I don't want to, signed it and put his phone number if they have any questions, and he said to keep it in my backpack and show it to teachers if there's ever an issue.
I love America most of the time, but I think America can be great even if there isn't mandatory indoctrination. I look back and feel grateful that my parents were pretty cool with this.
The “under god” part always rubbed me wrong. I was surprised to learn it was added relatively recently in 1954. I wish we could go back to the prior one.
I think the Christian Nationalists have overplayed their hand and revealed that their belief is politics takes priority over religion. Going back to the pre-1954 pledge is feasible within our lifetime.
Hopefully as part of the upcoming rebuke of sacrificing our nation's values for a megalomaniac coopting religion for political gain (with very public examples of hypocrisy). Jesus preached feeding the hungry, healing the sick, caring for the poor, loving thy neighbor. Any politics that goes against those basic principles is anti-Christian. Any attack or hindrance on a neighbor with a different faith is anti-Christian.
> I think the Christian Nationalists have overplayed their hand and revealed that their belief is politics takes priority over religion. Going back to the pre-1954 pledge is feasible within our lifetime.
Overplayed their hand? They’re reaching mainstream appeal now. There’s a whole religious revival around young zoomers but it’s a bit strange. A few months back I noticed the rage bait algorithms had my feeds looking like the 30 years war.
I agree. Culture wars have distorted, then corrupted a lot to the point where Christains think the state is their personal PR guy, bouncer, and front man ... with an undertone of entitlement to pursue while state is obligated to comply.
To me it smacks of desperation.
Wanna get more adherents? Live your life right, and keep stronger boundaries between personal and private. People will see and respect that.
When things cross, stop already with seeing public comments as an opportunity to evangelize, and blabber on about holiness.
Good example: there's a guy rusty (US state secratary) I believe got caught in the middle of Trump's 2020 election nonsense on the issue of alternative electors. He testified Jan 6 saying cooperation was against his faith and morals whatever the outcome.
Man, I had big respect for his actions and explanation. Short, factual, backed up by action.
It’s deeper than that. You shouldn’t have to pledge allegiance to any system or set of beliefs in a country that claims to enshrine free thought.
There’s nothing more American, in principal, than seeking to change America for the better.
How ridiculous would it have been for civil rights leaders to have pledged to preserve the America that existed till the mid 60s.
The pledge, or similar, is almost unique to the US and other authoritarian states.
There was a good book[0] about where that came from. Big business and religious leaders joined forced to fight the New Deal.
[0] One Nation Under God: How Corporate America Invented Christian America Kevin M. Kruse https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22928900-one-nation-unde...
See also perhaps Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation by Kristin Kobes Du Mez:
> The book examines white evangelical affinity for Donald Trump. Du Mez explains that white evangelical support for Donald Trump during the 2016 United States presidential election was a continuing trend rather than an exception. The book focuses on the militant masculinity that white evangelicals idealize and how it has manifested in a pattern of abuse among evangelical leaders. Du Mez criticizes mainstream evangelicals such as John Eldredge, John Piper, and James Dobson for advancing the evangelical ideal of militant masculinity.[4]
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_John_Wayne
The Christianity that is often in the news in the US is of a particular variety.
You can thank Billy Grahm, a major US preacher, for that under God [1] in which the GOP and religious right started to get more aligned around 1950.Indeed, Graham could often be seen later with Regaen (US president 1980-88).
I think it's decently accurate to write US founders were religious except:
(1) church private and state public was more of a thing even though the majority shared similar private values
(2) God was away/apart more so in a static background way
[1] https://www.ebsco.com/research-starters/history/pledge-alleg...
It should rub everyone the wrong way.
Honestly I think even without the "under God" part I've always thought it was kind of weird and culty.
Your comment reminds me of what one American college student said in public in Italy. It was 2018, Trump was president, I was on a shuttle bus that takes tourists up and down a viewpoint. It was just leaving the viewpoint when it stops, a man hops in and asks in English "Did anyone see an Apple Watch?". "Yeah, right here!". The first person had forgotten it in the bus, and the second person had found it, and returned it to him. The bus drives on, and the second person (American college student in a tour group) says loudly "Boy, he's lucky this bus is full of Americans!".
I wish I was clever enough to come up with something witty, something like "Oh yeah, because everyone else is a thieving bastard, is that what you're saying?".
> "Boy, he's lucky this bus is full of Americans!"
Perhaps only because they have a high likelyhood of speaking English and being able to help him? And sure, many Italians speak English, but if I needed help finding my watch, I like my odds of able to communicate with the Americans over almost any other nationality
Like that college kid, it appears you also suffer under the myth of American superiority...
"If you had a bus full of Japanese people, the watch would have been precisely where you left it!"
It was added to indoctrinate children into viewing the US as a Christian nation in contrast to the "Godless" communists.
So yes, weird an culty by design and intent.
Apparently effective.
To me it's not just the "under God" part, it's the fact that my kids (or I) have to pledge allegiance to a country at all, because how it intertwines with the government. It's not much different than pledging allegiance to kings back in the day (and comes from that).
I don't see what I should owe any country my "allegiance". If you interpret "the country" as being "the people in this country", then yes, I feel a responsibility towards their wellbeing, and I accept that as a form of allegiance. But in practice "the country" isn't really interpreted as "the people" but rather "the government", and is highly exclusive (us vs them). And if a government is largely contrary to my values, and isn't (in my view) helping me or the people of this country, then why should I owe it any particular allegiance? Allegiance shouldn't be automatic, but rather earned. And the recitation of the pledge in schools is part of trying to make it automatic.
Good for you. Not doing this is one of my regrets about middle school. I told my kids they didn't have to say the pledge, and that I would happily go to the mat for them on this issue.
Yeah, I'm grateful that my parents have always been pretty supportive of me and my siblings.
My kids are still young, but I’m going try very hard to be a father like this. Especially if it’s about things I don’t relate to or understand.
Are there really parents that would force their children to say it anyway? This feels like such a bizarre thing to have a fight over.
Absolutely. Children have been disowned and cut off for not following the faith of their families. Many parents take the "under God" part seriously.
I think it reasonable to assume that the principal, at least, would be such a parent
What? This is incredible if you don’t think a sizable portion of parents in America would force their children to say it.
I think it's slightly unbelievable to us who grew up in secular societies where being agnostic/atheistic/non-practing-believer is fairly common and not so out of the ordinary. Then we start hearing about the experiences in christian-nationalistic countries and how it is growing up there, and it's just very different from what you expect from a modern country.
I'm guessing Aeolun might be from one of those places/countries/states :)
I’ve never been Christian, but I have lived in the US my entire life, so I was always at least peripherally aware of “Christian culture”. I knew about Christian Rock and Christian movies, Christian video games, those weird Christian TV channels, etc. There has always been a distinct “Christian media” that is separate from the regular secular media.
For nearly my entire life, I had assumed that it was like this everywhere in the world, until I spent two weeks in the UK in 2022, when the topic of “Super Noah’s Ark 3D” came up (I believe because of a Steam sale).
The people I was with were extremely confused by the idea that there is a version of Wolfenstein 3D themed around Noah going around the ark firing food at goats, and I said “oh you know, it’s part of that whole Christian media culture”.
They had no idea what I was talking about, so I had to explain the weird dual media economy that exists in the US.
Kind of eye opening, I guess one of those stereotypical American things of assuming “everything is the US”.
No idea, but this was an overwhelmingly conservative part of Florida (Niceville, probably most famous for being where Matt Gaetz is from), so it wouldn't surprise me if some of the Southern Baptists or Pentacostals in the area would get their children in trouble over that.
Even twenty-three years later, I'm still a little surprised that they sent me to the principal's office over it. It seems like it was a waste of everyone's time, considering it would have been considerably easier to just roll their eyes and let me sit in class.
Well those pearls weren't going to clutch themselves, you know.
In communist Romania you had to kiss the party's behind every morning the exact same way, just without a god being mentioned. I don't think it helped the party in any way, but what do I know.
Meh, I think it's more disrespectful to pretend you love someone or feel something noisy just because it seems to be expected.
Very 'come a give Grandma a big kiss and tell her how much you love her' vibes