Unix downvoters should have a look on 9front (the most featureful/supported plan9 fork out there) in order to realize that you can follow the Unix philosophy (even more than OpenBSD itself) tossing the VT100 emulators to the legacy 'vt' emulator if you want somehow use ancient software (or SSH) while setting actual graphical windows with the shell running inside with no terminals at all. No more damn control codes messing up everything. No more linebreaks. You can cut down your text with the mouse from day one. Even under Sam, which is something like a graphical Ed crossed with Notepad and much more powerful expressions than Ex/Vi ones.
The 9front web site is certainly.. something.
https://9front.org
(I didn't downvote you.) Plan 9 made some really cool design decisions, and I keep looking for places to use 9P. I also believe that Plan 9, as an artifact of its era, bet too heavily on the mouse and pixel-mapped graphics. Text, character-cell terminal emulation, and SSH won for good reasons. "GUI > terminal" is a separate matter from "Plan 9 > Unix".
In some important ways, even text with hacky escape codes is more useful and more robust than a fundamentally graphical interface. Text scales up and down with display size and pixel density. Text works over high-latency links and enables simple latency compensation like in Mosh. Text gives you universal copy-paste. Text is more accessible for humans and for machines.
I use a virtual terminal daily on my phone. If we literally used rio GUIs designed around the three-button mouse and desktop pixel density, it would be a lot less ergonomic. I'd like to see a successor to the VT220 lineage, but it's easier to imagine it built on text.
> I also believe that Plan 9, as an artifact of its era, bet too heavily on the mouse and pixel-mapped graphics. Text, character-cell terminal emulation, and SSH won for good reasons. "GUI > terminal" is a separate matter from "Plan 9 > Unix".
What era? That is exactly the workflow of everyone using macOS and Windows around here.
Connecting to cloud environemnts is also done via a mix of RDP, VNC, Web GUI based tooling, akin to a modern X Windows replacement.
Classic Xerox PARC-derived GUIs are very useful but not a replacement for the terminal. I also connect to my workstation over RDP, then use a terminal emulator.
Windows is a good example of what I mean. Windows system administration has become unmistakably more text- and console-centric over time with the rise of PowerShell. Windows has started shipping an SSH service and made its graphical interface optional on the server.
The web has avoided falling into the same trap. Web UIs are, for the most part, delivered to the user as hypertext rather than rio-style pixels. They rarely hard-require a mouse and have adapted well to touchscreens. Graphics in new web UIs is usually vector (SVG).
You are missing the part that PowerShell has exactly a Xerox PARC like experience, first with PowerShell Integrated Scripting Environment, nowadays the same experience is available in VSCode.
Replicating the experience of using something like Smalltalk transcript window.
Of course Windows has SSH support, it needs to interoperate with UNIX, given that UNIX won the server room.
No need for SSH to talk with Windows Core/Nano, it can be done via Web GUI administration, or PowerShell remoting.
> Replicating the experience of using something like Smalltalk transcript window.
As far as I know from Pharo, the Smalltalk transcript logs plain text and is less capable than xterm. So what you care about is not the capabilities of the terminal but having a long-lived interactive session/REPL or a REPL integrated with an editor?
> No need for SSH to talk with Windows Core/Nano, it can be done via Web GUI administration, or PowerShell remoting.
I was thinking of the administrator connecting to Windows from their Mac or Linux/BSD machine. I don't know if that's a good idea compared to them getting a Windows VM and using Windows-to-Windows PowerShell remoting as you suggest.
With 9front you don't use SSH except against Unix. The motho there is too use 9p and import remote 'cpus', devices, auth against different servers... total orthogonality. You can spawn remote windows as if they were local. Heck, you can debug remote processes as if they were local too. By comparison SSH looks primitive...
No, it's the opposite. in order to send commands to a hosts you shouldn't need a terminal emulator (twice or thrice, depending on the SSH, tmux and the VTY subsystem under Unix) and even sending baud information. 9front just gives you the graphical window and the shell. Mosh? Ok, 9p and more can be almost stateless in order to not drop the connections. Still, you aren't bound to neither escape codes nor to crude hacks as SINWINCH and horrors to copy and paste text under Tmux/Screen. Don't get me started on trying to do such tasks with URL's.
Text? I do that under 9front, too. Heck, rc it's simpler there than sh itself. I can bind remote machines and use their scripts as if they were my own. I can import remote devices. I can do stuff without resorting to crude hacks with openssl and nc. C itself it's far simpler. Text, you say? No locales, and UTF8 everywhere. I can freely resize the windows and still cut and paste stuff like nothing. It's 2025. The closest workflow under Unix would be Bitlbee + any client for it, msmtp and mbsync for Email and any graphical client against the SLRN cache in order to be as usable.
Rio can use different fonts just fine, you know. There are several users using 24 px fonts on HD screens without no issues. With riow you get 'virtual desktops' a la cwm/i3 and the like.
>Three button mouse. I don't do mouse chords, but I get more universal copy and paste as I stated that the old Unix itself, with shorter and easier scripts again... than Unix.
On snarf/paste instead of the menu, modyfing rio/sam and the like for a keybinding can be something done under an afternoon. Riow can already manage windows and close then with keybings among the mentioned virtual desktops.
Oh, and BTW... for vi users... I consider the Sam regular expresions far more powerful than the vi keys themselves. I can highlight the text with the mouse and write a sam command (on acme too) which affects the selection and in an easier way than the old syntax. The best of both worlds. RSI? Well, that's a point for Unix, but with the Windows key + 1-4 the mouse usage can be reduced a lot.
And, again, the 9front API it's dumb simple; I'm pretty sure doing stuff like mapping the Windows key +j-k-l to mouse button 1-2-3 would be something relatively easy, even setting sticky menus. With that small patch tons of usability issues would go away. Meanwhile, under X.org, Wayland, evdev and the $toolkit of the day... good luck.
I don't think there is a client that will let me connect to 9front from Android, is there?
I see what you mean in this and the other comment. With 9front, you rely less on issuing commands to remote machines because you can directly access their resources. It's worth keeping in mind when comparing Plan 9 and Unix from a Unix user's perspective.
Being able to pick large fonts on the server isn't the same as leaving the fonts up to the client. When I use terminal emulators, SSH, and tmux, I can switch between different clients with different resolution, pixel density, and screen orientation and have the text display acceptably on each (minus text reflow for history, which is an issue).
> I consider the Sam regular expresions far more powerful than the vi keys themselves.
I agree, structural regular expressions seem like a better version of vi commands. It was reasonably easy to make some complex edits in https://github.com/martanne/vis when I tried it, and it felt like I'd only scratched the surface. I could see myself still using vis if it had tabs like Vim. (Tabs are a stated non-goal for vis.)