Their goal is to monopolize labor for anything that has to do with i/o on a computer, which is way more than SWE. Its simple, this technology literally cannot create new jobs it simply can cause one engineer (or any worker whos job has to do with computer i/o) to do the work of 3, therefore allowing you to replace workers (and overwork the ones you keep). Companies don't need "more work" half the "features"/"products" that companies produce is already just extra. They can get rid of 1/3-2/3s of their labor and make the same amount of money, why wouldn't they.
ZeroHedge on twitter said the following:
"According to the market, AI will disrupt everything... except labor, which magically will be just fine after millions are laid off."
Its also worth noting that if you can create a business with an LLM, so can everyone else. And sadly everyone has the same ideas, everyone ends up working on the same things causing competition to push margins to nothing. There's nothing special about building with LLMs as anyone can just copy you that has access to the same models and basic thought processes.
This is basic economics. If everyone had an oil well on their property that was affordable to operate the price of oil would be more akin to the price of water.
EDIT: Since people are focusing on my water analogy I mean:
If everyone has easy access to the same powerful LLMs that would just drive down the value you can contribute to the economy to next to nothing. For this reason I don't even think powerful and efficient open source models, which is usually the next counter argument people make, are necessarily a good thing. It strips people of the opportunity for social mobility through meritocratic systems. Just like how your water well isn't going to make your rich or allow you to climb a social ladder, because everyone already has water.
> And sadly everyone has the same ideas, everyone ends up working on the same things
This is someone telling you they have never had an idea that surprised them. Or more charitably, they've never been around people whose ideas surprised them. Their entire model of "what gets built" is "the obvious thing that anyone would build given the tools." No concept of taste, aesthetic judgment, problem selection, weird domain collisions, or the simple fact that most genuinely valuable things were built by people whose friends said "why would you do that?"
> Its also worth noting that if you can create a business with an LLM, so can everyone else. And sadly everyone has the same ideas
Yeah, this is quite thought provoking. If computer code written by LLMs is a commodity, what new businesses does that enable? What can we do cheaply we couldn't do before?
One obvious answer is we can make a lot more custom stuff. Like, why buy Windows and Office when I can just ask claude to write me my own versions instead? Why run a commodity operating system on kiosks? We can make so many more one-off pieces of software.
The fact software has been so expensive to write over the last few decades has forced software developers to think a lot about how to collaborate. We reuse code as much as we can - in shared libraries, common operating systems & APIs, cloud services (eg AWS) and so on. And these solutions all come with downsides - like supply chain attacks, subscription fees and service outages. LLMs can let every project invent its own tree of dependencies. Which is equal parts great and terrifying.
There's that old line that businesses should "commoditise their compliment". If you're amazon, you want package delivery services to be cheap and competitive. If software is the commodity, what is the bespoke value-added service that can sit on top of all that?
We said the same thing when 3D printing came out. Any sort of cool tech, we think everybody’s going to do it. Most people are not capable of doing it. in college everybody was going to be an engineer and then they drop out after the first intro to physics or calculus class. A bunch of my non tech friends were vibe coding some tools with replit and lovable and I looked at their stuff and yeah it was neat but it wasn't gonna go anywhere and if it did go somewhere, they would need to find somebody who actually knows what they're doing. To actually execute on these things takes a different kind of thinking. Unless we get to the stage where it's just like magic genie, lol. Maybe then everybody’s going to vibe their own software.
You can basically hand it a design, one that might take a FE engineer anywhere from a day to a week to complete and Codex/Claude will basically have it coded up in 30 seconds. It might need some tweaks, but it's 80% complete with that first try. Like I remember stumbling over graphing and charting libraries, it could take weeks to become familiar with all the different components and APIs, but seemingly you can now just tell Codex to use this data and use this charting library and it'll make it. All you have to do is look at the code. Things have certainly changed.
The number of non-technical people in my orbit that could successfully pull up Claude code and one shot a basic todo app is zero. They couldn’t do it before and won’t be able to now.
They wouldn’t even know where to begin!
> You can basically hand it a design
And, pray tell, how people are going to come up with such design?
> To actually execute on these things takes a different kind of thinking
Agreed. Honestly, and I hate to use the tired phrase, but some people are literally just built different. Those who'd be entrepreneurs would have been so in any time period with any technology.
Its not our current location, but our trajectory that is scary.
The walls and plateaus that have been consistently pulled out from "the comments of reassurance" have not materialized. If this pace holds for another year and a half, things are going to be very different. And the pipeline is absolutely overflowing with specialized compute coming online by the gigawatt for the foreseeable future.
So far the most accurate predictions in the AI space have been from the most optimistic forecasters.
Thank you for posting this.
Im really tired, and exhausted of reading simple takes.
Grok is a very capable LLM that can produce decent videos. Why are most garbage? Because NOT EVERYONE HAS THE SKILL NOR THE WILL TO DO IT WELL!
The answer is taste.
I don't know if they will ever get there, but LLMs are a long ways away from having decent creative taste.
Which means they are just another tool in the artist's toolbox, not a tool that will replace the artist. Same as every other tool before it: amazing in capable hands, boring in the hands of the average person.
100% correct. Taste is the correct term - I avoid using it as Im not sure many people here actually get what it truly means.
How can I proclaim what I said in the comment above? Because Ive spent the past week producing something very high quality with Grok. Has it been easy? Hell no. Could anyone just pick up and do what Ive done? Hell no. It requires things like patience, artistry, taste etc etc.
The current tech is soul-less in most people hands and it should remain used in a narrow range in this context. The last thing I want to see is low quality slop infesting the web. But hey that is not what the model producers want - they want to maximize tokens.
This goes well along with all my non-tech and even tech co-workers. Honestly the value generation leverage I have now is 10x or more then it was before compared to other people.
HN is a echo chamber of a very small sub group. The majority of people can’t utilize it and needs to have this further dumbed down and specialized.
That’s why marketing and conversion rate optimization works, its not all about the technical stuff, its about knowing what people need.
For funded VC companies often the game was not much different, it was just part of the expenses, sometimes a lot sometimes a smaller part. But eventually you could just buy the software you need, but that didn’t guarantee success. Their were dramatic failures and outstanding successes, and I wish it wouldn’t but most of the time the codebase was not the deciding factor. (Sometimes it was, airtable, twitch etc, bless the engineers, but I don’t believe AI would have solved these problems)
> The majority of people can’t utilize it
Tbh, depending on the field, even this crowd will need further dumbing down. Just look at the blog illustration slops - 99% of them are just terrible, even when the text is actually valuable. That's because people's judgement of value, outside their field of expertise, is typically really bad. A trained cook can look at some chatgpt recipe and go "this is stupid and it will taste horrible", whereas the average HN techbro/nerd (like yours truly) will think it's great -- until they actually taste it, that is.
Agreed. This place amazes in regards to how overly confident some people feel stepping outside of their domains.. the mistakes I see here in relation to talking about subject areas associated with corporate finance, valuation etc is hilarious. Truly hilarious.
> If software is the commodity, what is the bespoke value-added service that can sit on top of all that?
It would be cool if I can brew hardware at home by getting AI to design and 3D print circuit boards with bespoke software. Alas, we are constrained by physics. At the moment.
> Yeah, this is quite thought provoking. If computer code written by LLMs is a commodity, what new businesses does that enable? What can we do cheaply we couldn't do before?
The model owner can just withhold access and build all the businesses themselves.
Financial capital used to need labor capital. It doesn't anymore.
We're entering into scary territory. I would feel much better if this were all open source, but of course it isn't.
Why would the model owner do that? You still need some human input to operate the business, so it would be terribly impractical to try to run all the businesses. Better to sell the model to everyone else, since everyone will need it.
The only existential threat to the model owner is everyone being a model owner, and I suspect that's the main reason why all the world's memory supply is sitting in a warehouse, unused.
I think this risk is much lower in a world where there are lots of different model owners competing with each other, which is how it appears to be playing out.
New fields are always competitive. Eventually, if left to its own devices, a capitalist market will inevitably consolidate into cartels and monopolies. Governments better pay attention and possibly act before it's too late.
I don't disagree with everything you are saying. But you seem to be assuming that contributing to technology is a zero sum game when it concretely grows the wealth of the world.
> If everyone had an oil well on their property that was affordable to operate the price of oil would be more akin to the price of water.
This is not necessarily even true https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
Last I checked, the tractor and plow are doing a lot more work than 3 farmers, yet we've got more jobs and grow more food.
People will find work to do, whether that means there's tens of thousands of independent contractors, whether that means people migrate into new fields, or whether that means there's tens of multi-trillion dollar companies that would've had 200k engineers each that now only have 50k each and it's basically a net nothing.
People will be fine. There might be big bumps in the road.
Doom is definitely not certain.
> Last I checked, the tractor and plow are doing a lot more work than 3 farmers, yet we've got more jobs and grow more food.
Not sure when you checked.
In the US more food is grown for sure. For example just since 2007 it has grown from $342B to $417B, adjusted for inflation[1].
But employment has shrunk massively, from 14M in 1910 to around 3M now[2] - and 1910 was well after the introduction of tractors (plows not so much... they have been around since antiquity - are mentioned extensively in the old testament Bible for example).
[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A2000X1A020NBEA
[2] https://www.nass.usda.gov/Charts_and_Maps/Farm_Labor/fl_frmw...
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More jobs where? In farming? Is that why farming in the US is dying, being destroyed by corporations and farmers are now prisoners to John Deer? It’s hilarious that you chose possibly the worst counter example here…
More output, not more farmers. The stratification of labor in civilization is built on this concept, because if not for more food, we'd have more "farmer jobs" of course, because everyone would be subsistence farming...
I have never been in an organization where everyone was sitting around, wondering what to do next. If the economy was actually as good as certain government officials claimed to be, we would be hiring people left and right to be able to do three times as much work, not firing.
That's the thing, profits and equities are at all time highs, but these companies have laid off 400k SWEs in the last 16 months in the US, which should tell you what their plans are for this technology and augmenting their businesses.
The last 16 months of layoffs are almost certainly not because of LLMs. All the cheap money went away, and suddenly tech companies have to be profitable. That means a lot of them are shedding anything not nailed down to make their quarter look better.
The point is there’s no close positive correlation at that scale between labor and profits — hence the layoffs while these companies are doing better than ever. There’s zero reason to think increased productivity would lead to vastly more output from the company with the same amount of workers rather than far fewer workers and about the same amount of output, which is probably driven more by the market than a supply bottleneck.
decreasing COGS creates wealth and consumer surplus, though.
If we can flatten the social hierarchy to reduce the need for social mobility then that kills two birds with one stone.
So like....every business having electricity? I am not a economist so would love someone smarter than me explain how this is any different than the advent of electricity and how that affected labor.
An obvious argument to this is that electricity is becoming a lot more expensive (because of LLMs), so how is that going to affect labour?
The difference is that electricity wasn't being controlled by oligarchs that want to shape society so they become more rich while pillaging the planet and hurting/killing real human beings.
I'd be more trusting of LLM companies if they were all workplace democracies, not really a big fan of the centrally planned monarchies that seem to be most US corporations.
Heard of Carnegie? He controlled coal when it was the main fuel used for heating and electricity.
A reference to one of the hall of fame Robber Barons does seem pretty apt right now..
At least they built libraries, cultural centers and the occasional university.
Nowadays they just try to put more whiteys on the moon, or sabotage liberal democracy.
Its main distinction from previous forms of automation is its ability to apply reasoning to processes and its potential to operate almost entirely without supervision, and also to be retasked with trivial effort. Conventional automation requires huge investments in a very specific process. Widespread automation will allow highly automated organizations to pivot or repurpose overnight.
While I’m on your side electricity was (is?) controlled by oligarchs whose only goal was to become richer. It’s the same type of people that now build AI companies
Control over the fuels that create electricity has defined global politics, and global conflict, for generations. Oligarchs built an entire global order backed up by the largest and most powerful military in human history to control those resource flows, and have sacrificed entire ecosystems and ways of life to gain or maintain access.
So in that sense, yes, it’s the same
I mean your description sounds a lot like the early history of large industrialization of electricity. Lots of questionable safety and labor practices, proprietary systems, misinformation, doing absolutely terrible things to the environment to fuel this demand, massive monopolies, etc.
> They can get rid of 1/3-2/3s of their labor and make the same amount of money, why wouldn't they.
Competition may encourage companies to keep their labor. For example, in the video game industry, if the competitors of a company start shipping their games to all consoles at once, the company might want to do the same. Or if independent studios start shipping triple A games, a big studio may want to keep their labor to create quintuple A games.
On the other hand, even in an optimistic scenario where labor is still required, the skills required for the jobs might change. And since the AI tools are not mature yet, it is difficult to know which new skills will be useful in ten years from now, and it is even more difficult to start training for those new skills now.
With the help of AI tools, what would a quintuple A game look like? Maybe once we see some companies shipping quintuple A games that have commercial success, we might have some ideas on what new skills could be useful in the video game industry for example.
Yeah but there’s no reason to assume this is even a possibility. SW Companies that are making more money than ever are slashing their workforces. Those garbage Coke and McDonald’s commercials clearly show big industry is trying to normalize bad quality rather than elevate their output. In theory, cheap overseas tweening shops should have allowed the midcentury American cartoon industry to make incredible quality at the same price, but instead, there was a race straight to the bottom. I’d love to have even a shred of hope that the future you describe is possible but I see zero empirical evidence that anyone is even considering it.
Its also worth noting that if you can create a business with an LLM, so can everyone else.
One possibility may be that we normalize making bigger, more complex things.
In pre-LLM days, if I whipped up an application in something like 8 hours, it would be a pretty safe assumption that someone else could easily copy it. If it took me more like 40 hours, I still have no serious moat, but fewer people would bother spending 40 hours to copy an existing application. If it took me 100 hours, or 200 hours, fewer and fewer people would bother trying to copy it.
Now, with LLMs... what still takes 40+ hours to build?
> They can get rid of 1/3-2/3s of their labor and make the same amount of money, why wouldn't they.
Because companies want to make MORE money.
Your hypothetical company is now competing with another company who didn’t opposite, and now they get to market faster, fix bugs faster, add feature faster, and responding to changes in the industry faster. Which results in them making more, while your employ less company is just status quo.
Also. With regards to oil, the consumption of oil increases as it became cheaper. With AI we now have a chance to do projects that simply would have cost way too much to do 10 years ago.
> With AI we now have a chance to do projects that simply would have cost way too much to do 10 years ago.
Not sure about that, at least if we're talking about software. Software is limited by complexity, not the ability to write code. Not sure LLMs manage complexity in software any better than humans do.
> Which results in them making more
Not necessarily.
You are assuming that the people can consume whatever is put in front of them. Markets get saturated fast. The "changes in the industry" mean nothing.
A) People are so used to infinite growth that it’s hard to imagine a market where that doesn’t exist. The industry can have enough developers and there’s a good chance we’re going to crash right the fuck into that pretty quickly. America’s industrial labor pool seemed like it provided an ever-expanding supply of jobs right up until it didn’t. Then, in the 80s, it started going backwards preeeetttty dramatically.
B) No amount of money will make people buy something that doesn’t add value to or enrich their lives. You still need ideas, for things in markets that have room for those ideas. This is where product design comes in. Despite what many developers think, there are many kinds of designers in this industry and most of them are not the software equivalent of interior decorators. Designing good products is hard, and image generators don’t make that easier.
Its really wild how much good UI stands out to me now that the internet is been flooded with generically produced slop. I created a bookmarks folder for beautiful sites that clearly weren't created by LLMs and required a ton of sweat to design the UI/UX.
I think we will transition to a world where handmade software/design will come at a huge premium (especially as the average person gets more distanced from the actual work required to do so, and the skills become rarer). Just like the wealthy pay for handmade shoes, as opposed to something off the shelf from footlocker, I think companies will revert back to hand crafted UX. These identical center column layout's with a 3x3 feature card grid at the bottom of your landing page are going to get really old fast in a sea of identical design patterns.
To be fair component libraries were already contributing to this degradation in design quality, but LLM s are making it much worse.
The price of oil at the price of water (ecology apart) should be a good thing.
Automation should be, obviously, a good thing, because more is produced with less labor. What it says of ourselves and our politics that so many people (me included) are afraid of it?
In a sane world, we would realize that, in a post-work world, the owner of the robots have all the power, so the robots should be owned in common. The solution is political.
What do we “need” more of? Here in France we need more doctors, more nurseries, more teachers… I don’t see AI helping much there in short to middle term (with teachers all research points to AI making it massively worse even)
Globally I think we need better access to quality nutrition and more affordable medicine. Generally cheaper energy.
Isn’t the end game that all the displaced SWEs give up their cushy, flexible job and get retrained as nurses?
Wait, my job is not cushy. I think hard all day long, I endure levels of frustration that would cripple most, and I do it because I have no choice, I must build the thing I see or be tormented by its possibility. Cushy? Right.
This is the most "1st world problems" comment I've read today.
Throughout history Empires have bet their entire futures on the predictions of seers, magicians and done so with enthusiasm. When political leaders think their court magicians can give them an edge, they'll throw the baby out with the bathwater to take advantage of it. It seems to me that the Machine Learning engineers and AI companies are the court magicians of our time.
I certainly don't have much faith in the current political structures, they're uneducated on most subjects they're in charge of and taking the magicians at their word, the magicians have just gotten smarter and don't call it magic anymore.
I would actually call it magic though, just actually real. Imagine explaining to political strategists from 100 years ago, the ability to influence politicians remotely, while they sit in a room by themselves a la dictating what target politicians see on their phones and feed them content to steer them in a certain directions.. Its almost like a synthetic remote viewing.. And if that doesn't work, you also have buckets of cash :|
While I agree, I am not hopeful. The incentive alignment has us careening towards Elysium rather than Star Trek.
> Its also worth noting that if you can create a business with an LLM, so can everyone else. And sadly everyone has the same ideas
Yeah, people are going to have to come to terms with the "idea" equivalent of "there are no unique experiences". We're already seeing the bulk move toward the meta SaaS (Shovels as a Service).
Retail water[1] costs $881/bbl which is 13x the price of Brent crude.
[1] https://www.walmart.com/ip/Aquafina-Purified-Drinking-Water-...
What a good faith reply. If you sincerely believe this, that's a good insight into how dumb the masses are. Although I would expect a higher quality of reply on HN.
You found the most expensive 8pck of water on Walmart. Anyone can put a listing on Walmart, its the same model as Amazon. There's also a listing right below for bottles twice the size, and a 32 pack for a dollar less.
It cost $0.001 per gallon out of your tap, and you know this..
I'm in South Australia, the driest state on the driest continent, we have a backup desalination plant and water security is common on the political agenda - water is probably as expensive here than most places in the world
"The 2025-26 water use price for commercial customers is now $3.365/kL (or $0.003365 per litre)"
https://www.sawater.com.au/my-account/water-and-sewerage-pri...
Water just comes out of a tap?
My household water comes from a 500 ft well on my property requiring a submersible pump costing $5000 that gets replaced ever 10-15 years or so with a rig and service that cost another 10k. Call it $1000/year... but it also requires a giant water softener, in my case a commercial one that amortizes out to $1000/year, and monthly expenditure of $70 for salt (admittedly I have exceptionally hard water).
And of course, I, and your municipality too, don't (usually) pay any royalties to "owners" of water that we extract.
Water is, rightly, expensive, and not even expensive enough.
You have a great source of water, which unfortunately for you cost you more money than the average, but because everyone else also has water that precious resource of yours isn't really worth anything if you were to try and go sell it. It makes sense why you'd want it to be more expensive, and that dangerous attitude can also be extrapolated to AI compute access. I think there's going to be a lot of people that won't want everyone to have plentiful access to the highest qualities of LLMs for next to nothing for this reason.
If everyone has easy access to the same powerful LLMs that would just drive down the value you can contribute to the economy to next to nothing. For this reason I don't even think powerful and efficient open source models, which is usually the next counter argument people make, are necessarily a good thing. It strips people of the opportunity for social mobility through meritocratic systems. Just like how your water well isn't going to make your rich or allow you to climb a social ladder, because everyone already has water.
I think the technology of LLMs/AI is probably a bad thing for society in general. Even a full post scarcity AGI world where machines do everything for us ,I don't even know if that's all that good outside of maybe some beneficial medical advances, but can't we get those advances without making everyone's existence obsolete?
I agree water should probably be priced more in general, and it's certainly more expensive in some places than others, but neither of your examples is particularly representative of the sourcing relevant for data centers (scale and potability being different, for starters).
Yeah, but a Stratocaster guitar is available to everybody too, but not everybody’s an Eric Clapton
This is correct. An LLM is a tool. Having a better guitar doesn’t make you sound good if you don’t know how to play. If you were a low skill software systems etc arch before LLM you’re gonna be a bad one after as well. Someone at some point is deciding what the agent should be doing. LLMs compete more with entry level / juniors.
I can buy the CD From the Cradle for pennies, but it would cost me hundreds of dollars to see Eric Clapton live
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