The EU is not Europe. I never see any pro-EU sentiment anywhere besides on HN and Reddit. Talk to Europeans and they hate the EU and see it as an oppressive foreign power. Except for the Germans.
The EU is not Europe. I never see any pro-EU sentiment anywhere besides on HN and Reddit. Talk to Europeans and they hate the EU and see it as an oppressive foreign power. Except for the Germans.
> Talk to Europeans and they hate the EU and see it as an oppressive foreign power.
Your framing is off, I'm afraid.
Across Europe, most people see the EU as more good than bad, especially compared to the alternative of countries acting alone. At the same time, support is often cautious rather than enthusiastic.
Voter turn out is extremely low in certain central and eastern Europe for EU elections. I think it was down to under 20% in some places a few years ago.
I had hoped that the UK would vote to remain and Europe would move away from a centralist, authoritarian model, but it's got worse especially since 2020. The EU is its own worst enemy.
> move away from a centralist, authoritarian model,
EU is authoritarian? Why do you think that?
It is restricting freedom of expression, and increasing public surveillance.
The EU is what held back the surveillance in the UK. Post brexit they went all in on surveillance.
Both the UK and the EU are rolling in censorship, surveillance and digital ID.
You've literally just contradicted your own post in this thread.
No, I haven't. Both the UK and EU are doing many of the same things. You can argue that the EU is bureaucratic without supporting bureaucracy within the UK. These are not contradictory positions.
You claimed that the UK leaving was bad as they were more liberal, and then noted that they were also doing lots of anti privacy stuff. Seems a little contradictory to me.
One definition of authoritarian is "enforcing strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom".
It would seem to me that the recent spate of sanctioning individuals - e.g. for 'disseminating misinformation' without a legal definition of what that actually is would be an example of authoritarianism. A direct attack on freedom of speech and thought.
It insists on things like "corruption is bad", "human rights are for everyone including gays" so naturally certain conservative groups find that authoritarian.
Human rights are for everyone, not just people you agree with. If you bring in censorship, surveillance and smother protest for people you disagree with, you will find it getting used against you yourself at some point. Europe has imported this false binary from the USA, and it is not benefitting it either.
The EU has its fair share of corruption, but it is is better at hiding it than developing countries. Its current president Ursula Von Der Leyen is a fraud who appears to have cheated at university, and only got to where she did due to wealth and aristocratic family connections.
also things such as chat control and surveilling the entire populace, but I'm sure you must be right that the problem people have with it is that they say "corruption is bad"
Chat control is a Swedish proposal that has consistently lost in the Parliament. We should of course keep fighting it but at least as a Swede I know things would have been much worse without the EU.
> Chat control is Swedish proposal.
It was pushed by Sweden but also by many other countries including France (which loves to give lessons of democracy to the world by the way and is very much at the forefront of human rights or so they say) and Hungary amongst others.
> has consistently lost in the Parliament.
It has consistently lost so far. Secondly the reason it has lost is because people like me took the time to actually reach out to any MEP who would take my call to tell them to oppose this law. If we had waited for the EU to react and put a stop to this madness, we would still be waiting.
This law should never have been proposed in the first place anyway. The fact that it was proposed and debated is a shameful action in itself.
> I know things would have been much worse without the EU.
How can you know for sure? You can't. Since it originated from the EU commission, it stands to reason that without the EU commission it would not have happened.
You believe that the EU is good because that is your belief. The European countries existed for 100s of years before the EU. There is no reason to think that they can't go back to this state in the future.
I've never seen any pro-EU attitude in the European countries I've lived in. Except for among the political and media class. But those aren't representatives of the general population.
But I haven't lived in central Europe, like Germany, Belgium, etc. Where the attitudes seem to be quite pro-EU.
The original statement still stands. Europe is not the EU. The EU is not Europe.
Which Europeans have you "talked" to? Discord and twitter don't count. People moan about the EU like they moan about their own national government.
Opinion polls on actually leaving the EU show a minority in favour. Most Europeans saw Brexit play out and realise sticking the finger up at your neighbours is not a winning strategy.
Brexit was ironically mostly an anti immigration vote. It has thoroughly demolished the involved parties that the one thing promised has not come to pass.
I guess real life doesn't count either? Good that we can rely on HN and Reddit, where the pro-EU sentiment is strong. I just haven't seen that in real life, which is why I suggest maybe it might be particular to Germans and probably Belgians and Dutch.
Where have you lived in the EU? I think that the EU is mostly mediocre rather like our national governments.
That is more indicative of the company you keep than the actual reality on the ground.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/657860/member-states-show-stron...
Spanish guy here: no, we don't hate the EU, quite the opposite. Please stop feeding on right-wing propaganda that wants to destroy us.
Unfortunately you live in the wrong time and age. You'd like to report to your local commissar when somebody expresses opinions and ideas against the cherished government - "he's a right wing propagandist who seeks to destroy us!". But it's not the 20th century anymore, and all you can do is scream into the cyber void.
Dude please, my country endured 40 years of a fascist government, we know a few things about right wing propaganda...
Accusing anybody who doesn't love the government of "spreading propaganda" is not a sign of knowledge. It's a sign of an obsolete 20th century mindset and perspective on life.
Next perhaps you're going to accuse me of "Staatsfeindlichkeit", which the German leadership was screaming in their denouncements, before the people tore down their walls.
"Verunglimpfung des Staates" - "Insulting the State", this awful, awful crime, is something I'm going to continue doing however I fancy. Millions of people were killed for that right, so it's not something I'm ever giving up.
Not loving the government is OK. Heck, hating the government might also be OK.
Insisting that we European citizens hate the EU when it is not true, and then doubling down with accusations of censorship when the whole thread points out your mistake, is downright stupid. But hey, if that makes you happy as some kind of freedom fighter, go for it.
When you start talking about "right wing propaganda that will destroy us", then I only hear echoes of the government worship of the 20th century. As I said, the EU is not Europe, nor the other way around. And that's mainly what's upsetting hackers. They live in a fantasy that the EU is in some way like the USA. I know that quite a lot of Germans, Dutch and Belgians consider themselves "EU citizens". And maybe Spaniards as well. Nobody in Northern Europe considers themself an "EU citizen" or gives any value to the EU. They consider themselves people of their own nations only, and the EU as a foreign influence.
> Talk to Europeans and they hate the EU and see it as an oppressive foreign power.
Maybe you should get out of your right-wing bubble.
- EU approval among its citizens hits record high as security fears grow, poll shows (https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-approval-among-its-c...)
- Nearly three quarters of EU citizens (74%) say that, taking everything into account, their country has benefited from being a member of the EU. (https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/3378)
The EU is busy clamping down on freedom of expression and forcing through Digital ID. It isn't some paradise.
There are things I like about the EU, but it also has some things horribly wrong.
> It isn't some paradise.
Compared to the USA it still is.
The EU has better healthcare and welfare overall, but fewer individual rights in other areas. Less gun crime (although this depends on region). Poverty levels vary a lot across the EU.
Americans take homeschooling for granted, for better or worse, but it is banned in some European countries like Germany.
Also the USA allows groups such as the Amish their liberty, which would be extremely unlikely in much of the EU where state interference would either force them out or destroy them.
The US has umpteen issues but is much better for freedom of expression frankly, although it is being steered away from that.
I've read somewhere that Americans understand freedom as "freedom TO", shiny Europeans understand freedom as "freedom FROM". This is extremely visible in this thread and probably a cause of many misunderstandings.
This is definitely the case.
There's philosophical terms for this: America emphasizes negative liberty ("freedom from interference by other people. Negative liberty is primarily concerned with freedom from external restraint") , while Europe emphasizes positive liberty ("the possession of the power and resources to act in the context of the structural limitations of the broader society which impacts a person's ability to act")
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_liberty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_liberty
Right now EU is not arresting own citizens for failure to provide ID card while america does that even when said people have id card.
EU is not demanding 5 yeara of social media public from kids entering in.
EU is not killing fisherman to feel manly.
EU is overall more democratic and more free. The parts that sux Hungary and Slovakia dont sux because of EU, but despite it.
It is ok for Germany to not have homeschooling.
The EU is not more "free". There are a lot of things you can't say or will get shut down for. Most of the EU does not have the same freedom of expression or religion that the USA guarantees in its founding documents. The collective cannot have freedom if the individual does not. That includes the right to disagree.
The EU and USA are going down the same road. Social media is a part of this censorship of open discussion and is usually American based, but works hand in hand with the European governments. Both European and American governments seem happy to deceive citizens into a surveillance state.
It is unacceptable to ban homeschooling. Some children need to be homeschooled, because of disabilities, or even high intelligence. Given the fact that Germany has suffered from both far right and far left dictatorships within living memory, anything that does not promote blind obedience to the state should be encouraged.
Many parts of Europe retain a feudal mentality, which includes constant deference to authority.
I've seen what a complete crapshoot state education is first hand. My god daughter came out of school recently and can barely read and write. I had to suffer through it myself...
I find it amusing that homeschooling is so vilified and stereotyped. All the homeschooled children I know are BETTER educated not worse. Contrary to the stereotype. Schools have massive bullying issues and are often bad environments for neurodiverse people. Schools are very Lord of the Flies.
Home schooling is of course only as good as the people teaching but the same is true of schools. Most state curricula prioritise the state and adoration of the state... funnily enough
> Such as?
Well, we can't say them.
(but it involves nazies, denying genocides, hate speech, and this kind of stuff. It also depends on the country)
> Such as? I honestly can't think of anything.
Jacques Baud, recently sanctioned by the EU for promoting conspiracy theories. https://data.europa.eu/apps/eusanctionstracker/subjects/1802...
He is not an EU citizen and, as a foreigner, acts as a mouthpiece for a hostile dictatorship. The US has sanctioned similar people too, most notably Margarita Simonyan, the editor-in-chief of Russia Today: https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy2559
Not all European countries have banned home schooling. Not even all members of the EU.
As for neglect and abuse of children, the public schools is where you will most readily find it. Including bullying until children commit suicide. And school shootings. Which is a lesser risk at home. No matter which continent.
No one said all EU countries have banned homeschooling. That is just one issue.
Schools are a haven for bullying, both by students and teachers. I did have some good teachers but some of them were also the most cruel and abusive people I've ever met.
Please tell me more about the daily school shootings in Europe.
the eu is better for online freedom of expression, with its GDPR regulations
GDPR is decent, but the governments themselves are pushing surveillance so it is two steps forward and one back.
I don't give very much for statistics and opinion polls. People tend to give the answer they think they're "supposed to give" in those. I base my assessment on my experience from talking to people in real life.
> Maybe you should get out of your right-wing bubble.
Your comment is nasty, but I don't think you're this nasty in real life. Probably you're just blowing off some steam online.
I'm from the EU. I don't know a single person that is against EU. Everyone among my friends and colleagues, including me, is strongly pro-EU.
At least I know that's a bubble, because I know anti-eu people exist in my country too. Get out of yours.
Likewise, I've never met a person who has said they are for the EU or even strongly pro-EU. So it must be a question of which of the EU member countries you are in or other kind of bubbles.
> Get out of yours.
I suggested in my original post that Germans seem to be pro-EU. And probably neighbouring countries too. Here in this thread also appeared a fanatically pro-EU Spaniard. In Nordic countries, I've never met a person who would admit they were pro-EU. Of course they must exist, since presumably half the people voted yes to join, a few decades ago.
In the end it seems to be no more complicated than people who benefit financially from EU redistribution of money are pro-EU and the people who have to pay the bill for it are against the EU.
Every single EU countries population prefers EU leadership over their own national leadership.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/657860/member-states-show-stron...
fwiw: I definitely am paying the bill. But I'm also strongly pro-EU. Taxes are a membership fee for a functioning society.
As I said, I don't give much for opinion polls. And comparing two sides as you do now, doesn't mean that people are fond of either side.
You can prove anything with statistics. The last opinion poll I saw for my country of birth was both the EU and the national government at a less than 50% approval rate.
Ok so you trust your gut and lived experiences more that population statistics. That's a totally valid approach but it's very easy to misread the popular opinion as your friends are not a random sample.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Stop generalising. You don't know what Europeans think at all "except for the Germans"
I have an idea of what I'm talking about. I say that the EU is not Europe. Nor is Europe the EU. People in these conversations need to understand the difference, because it is significant. Norway, Great Britain, Iceland and Switzerland aren't in the EU.
All of those bar the UK are in the EEA though.
Yes, but those are only trade and border agreements, and don't give the EU influence on internal political matters. Compare similar trade agreements between other nations, such as between the United States and their neighbours.