This article is about FAFO for MAGA loyalists in the USA. Well, MAGA has FA'd with US-European relations. Now they get to FO where it takes us (i.e. over the waterfall, isolating the USA from everything good in the world.)
I mean, we still borderline run the world, so there's that. In this very OP it's major news that Europe is trying to move off of US technology, because we're just so dominant.
> trump pissing away a century of hard-won soft power handed the century to China
Right, it's all Trump's fault, not the fault of the boomers that sold our country's manufacturing base out to China in the 60's onward which gave them their start, and that we've never recovered from.
But no, I'm sure it's the orange man who still hasn't done 1/3rd of the things we voted him in to do, that is the problem. Average deportation rates are still below Obama's terms, "Mr. President, there's too much winning!!". What a joke, I wish he did half the things you all claim he does, we'd be much better off.
Americans really need to consider stuff outside their little bubble sometimes and think about how their country is just a gear in a much larger system.
Of course American power is being pissed away by the guy hurting the transatlantic alliance American power was built on in the first place.
Your internal generational squabbles don't concern us. How you present yourself externally does, and that's worse than it's been in a long time.
It can be both. The document is massive, very contradictory and incoherent, and most of the people hysterical over it haven't even read it. Look I'm no fan of the trump administration but people should have concrete concerns, not waving around "project 2025" like some symbol of the country's imminent collapse. Unfortunately, our country is nowhere near collapse and this administration is not going to be the thing to bring it down. Though they're trying their hardest, i will admit.
Talk of how it might be interpreted is rather beside the point when the administration appears to be implementing a particular interpretation and SCOTUS appears to be fine with that, whether or not it is a selective one. Those are the concrete concerns of which you speak.
It is helpful to have the document publicly available, but only if enough people heed its implicit warning.
I would argue the concrete concerns we should have is the fact that we seem to be committing economic suicide, which will have decades of economic and sociopolitical fallout. If you think people have an appetite for fascism today, wait until you see what decades of deflating economies will do.
If the #2 or #1 most popular political party in Germany are "literal Neonazis", I think Germany and likely Europe as a whole has a much bigger problem than whatever America is doing.
Well, foreign intervention and propaganda in democracies is nothing new. It is well documented all the way back to the time of ancient Greece.
So your contention is that in Germany and perhaps other countries (France?) some of the most popular political parties are popular only because their partisans are uneducated dupes or worse, in thrall to foreign powers. Perhaps you would be better off ideologically not supporting democracy - it sounds like it is not for you. Of course democracy has its problems - and people voting for dumb ideas is one of them!
You can either accept that it's your duty to convince your citizens you are right to win their votes, or you can insist that everyone else is wrong and democracy means they should shut up and vote only the "right" way in accordance with establishment approved opinions and go about what Europe has been doing, which is to continue to pursue unpopular policies and blame Russiia/nazis/America/the Internet/free speech for their problems.
European center and left parties could suck all the oxygen out of the room and starve the far-right overnight if they simply introduced and enforced major immigration restrictions - but it's precisely this which is not a Establishment Approved Idea and deemed Unthinkable Hate. Democracy, as long as your opinions are allowed.
> So your contention is that in Germany and perhaps other countries (France?) some of the most popular political parties are popular only because their partisans are uneducated dupes or worse, in thrall to foreign powers. Perhaps you would be better off ideologically not supporting democracy - it sounds like it is not for you. Of course democracy has its problems - and people voting for dumb ideas is one of them!
I don't! I think authoritarian leftism is the way to go as most people are too stupid for their own good tbh.
> European center and left parties could suck all the oxygen out of the room and starve the far-right overnight if they simply introduced and enforced major immigration restrictions
Economic suicide. Why would anyone argue for this? Europe might as well just nuke itself.
Granted, if I were a conservative European, I would also be pro nuking myself.
Heavens to Betsy, someone online just disagreed with the Correct Political Views! Better ban their account and send an officer to their door to arrest them now, before they can further poison our beautiful free democracies with their right-wing propaganda.
The Trump administration really does have a point about anti-democratic restrictions on core liberties in Europe. You'd be very surprised because you're used to European censorship regimes reaching beyond the continent and limiting free speech online.
You can't comment like this on Hacker News, no matter who or what you're replying to. You've taken a flamewar 15 comments deep. That's exactly what we're trying to avoid here.
This article is about FAFO for MAGA loyalists in the USA. Well, MAGA has FA'd with US-European relations. Now they get to FO where it takes us (i.e. over the waterfall, isolating the USA from everything good in the world.)
I doubt there's ever going to be an FO. What does Europe have of any value? What was the last thing of relevance they've done? Help with WWII?
What was the last thing the US did of any relevance? Help with WWII. Just as stupid claim.
I mean, we still borderline run the world, so there's that. In this very OP it's major news that Europe is trying to move off of US technology, because we're just so dominant.
only for the remaining part of the decade, if the US is lucky
trump pissing away a century of hard-won soft power handed the century to China
> trump pissing away a century of hard-won soft power handed the century to China
Right, it's all Trump's fault, not the fault of the boomers that sold our country's manufacturing base out to China in the 60's onward which gave them their start, and that we've never recovered from.
But no, I'm sure it's the orange man who still hasn't done 1/3rd of the things we voted him in to do, that is the problem. Average deportation rates are still below Obama's terms, "Mr. President, there's too much winning!!". What a joke, I wish he did half the things you all claim he does, we'd be much better off.
Americans really need to consider stuff outside their little bubble sometimes and think about how their country is just a gear in a much larger system.
Of course American power is being pissed away by the guy hurting the transatlantic alliance American power was built on in the first place.
Your internal generational squabbles don't concern us. How you present yourself externally does, and that's worse than it's been in a long time.
Project 2025 was just political rage bait and rumors too, until it wasn’t.
It can be both. The document is massive, very contradictory and incoherent, and most of the people hysterical over it haven't even read it. Look I'm no fan of the trump administration but people should have concrete concerns, not waving around "project 2025" like some symbol of the country's imminent collapse. Unfortunately, our country is nowhere near collapse and this administration is not going to be the thing to bring it down. Though they're trying their hardest, i will admit.
Talk of how it might be interpreted is rather beside the point when the administration appears to be implementing a particular interpretation and SCOTUS appears to be fine with that, whether or not it is a selective one. Those are the concrete concerns of which you speak.
It is helpful to have the document publicly available, but only if enough people heed its implicit warning.
I would argue the concrete concerns we should have is the fact that we seem to be committing economic suicide, which will have decades of economic and sociopolitical fallout. If you think people have an appetite for fascism today, wait until you see what decades of deflating economies will do.
Their VP and one of their government-linked oligarchs is meeting with literal Neonazis in Germany that are trying to topple the constitutional order: https://www.politico.com/news/2025/02/14/jd-vance-afd-meetin...
To say they're not anti-Europe is either hopelessly naive or cynically ideologically aligned with their goals.
If the #2 or #1 most popular political party in Germany are "literal Neonazis", I think Germany and likely Europe as a whole has a much bigger problem than whatever America is doing.
Those two are not unrelated.
It's a result of deliberate media manipulation and hybrid warfare by the US and Russia.
Let's not forget Israel.
I see.
Well, foreign intervention and propaganda in democracies is nothing new. It is well documented all the way back to the time of ancient Greece.
So your contention is that in Germany and perhaps other countries (France?) some of the most popular political parties are popular only because their partisans are uneducated dupes or worse, in thrall to foreign powers. Perhaps you would be better off ideologically not supporting democracy - it sounds like it is not for you. Of course democracy has its problems - and people voting for dumb ideas is one of them!
You can either accept that it's your duty to convince your citizens you are right to win their votes, or you can insist that everyone else is wrong and democracy means they should shut up and vote only the "right" way in accordance with establishment approved opinions and go about what Europe has been doing, which is to continue to pursue unpopular policies and blame Russiia/nazis/America/the Internet/free speech for their problems.
European center and left parties could suck all the oxygen out of the room and starve the far-right overnight if they simply introduced and enforced major immigration restrictions - but it's precisely this which is not a Establishment Approved Idea and deemed Unthinkable Hate. Democracy, as long as your opinions are allowed.
> So your contention is that in Germany and perhaps other countries (France?) some of the most popular political parties are popular only because their partisans are uneducated dupes or worse, in thrall to foreign powers. Perhaps you would be better off ideologically not supporting democracy - it sounds like it is not for you. Of course democracy has its problems - and people voting for dumb ideas is one of them!
I don't! I think authoritarian leftism is the way to go as most people are too stupid for their own good tbh.
> European center and left parties could suck all the oxygen out of the room and starve the far-right overnight if they simply introduced and enforced major immigration restrictions
Economic suicide. Why would anyone argue for this? Europe might as well just nuke itself.
Granted, if I were a conservative European, I would also be pro nuking myself.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany
AFG are Neonazis?
Indeed.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/19/turmoil-in-ger...
https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/dangerous-liais...
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From the wikipedia article you just linked to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#Neo-Na...
and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#German...
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geberation there will be no more real germans
I would be very surprised if this type of speech is allowed/tolerated on HN.
Heavens to Betsy, someone online just disagreed with the Correct Political Views! Better ban their account and send an officer to their door to arrest them now, before they can further poison our beautiful free democracies with their right-wing propaganda.
The Trump administration really does have a point about anti-democratic restrictions on core liberties in Europe. You'd be very surprised because you're used to European censorship regimes reaching beyond the continent and limiting free speech online.
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It's not tolerated because it's not the truth, even if your feelings are hurt by that.
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We've had to ask you several times before to avoid commenting like this. Once again, please stop. We'll have to ban the account if this continues.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
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You can't comment like this on Hacker News, no matter who or what you're replying to. You've taken a flamewar 15 comments deep. That's exactly what we're trying to avoid here.
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.