It's worth noting there are islamists on both side. Anyone who characterizes this as purely religious or ethnic has a bridge to sell. This conflict would have died years ago if it weren't for foreign actors putting their hands up Sudan's ass
The number of violent conflicts initiated by various islamist groups is insane [1]. There is something wrong here that goes beyond funding. It's possible to acknowledge that without being islamophobic.
The heatmap may as well represent a map of recently decolonized areas with unresolved political issues, and just so happens that many of these places have significant Muslim populations.
If you read the Koran and Hadiths, there are numerous statements about the true Muslims duty being to spread Islam - at the point of the sword being a well supported one, scripture wise.
Isn't that true of Christianity as well? If it is the true Muslim's duty to spread Islam by the sword, then why did it take centuries for populations to convert to Islam in places like Egypt which were conquered by leaders who knew Mohammed personally? Why did places which were never conquered by Muslim caliphates like Indonesia have significant Muslim populations today?
No, definitely not with the same authority. If you take the Bible as the equivalent of the Quran, and the church fathers as the equivalent of the hadiths, neither has any endorsement of conversion through threats of violence. Jesus was never a political or military leader, nor were the first few generations of Christian leaders.
I cannot give as clear an answer with regard to islam, because I do not know enough in depth, but there are a variety of interpretations. There was persecution of religious minorities in the Muslim empires, but mass slaughter of those who refused to convert would have inspired rebellion. The conversion did happen in places like Egypt and Syria and Persia and there was coercion.
As for Indonesia, the GP did not claim Islam spread only by the sword.
Notably, I never said ‘by the sword’ was the only way. There is definitely a history of a number of religions doing it though!
First, I am under no illusions that what a religions book (or common formal teachings) says necessarily matches what its stated followers actually do.
Judaism essentially forbids ‘recruiting’, and it is quite difficult to convert. Mainly because Judaism is essentially ‘this group of people have a special deal with god/are god’s special people’.
Which makes the crusades particularly crazy/insane of course. Jesus was clearly non-violent and didn’t want people going out killing each other over anything he was saying.
At the time, the Church (now Catholic Church) heavily controlled ‘the word’, by insisting everything be done in Latin - which they were then the gatekeepers for. They also meddled (or flat out controlled!) national politics, and this gave them immense power to control the narrative of ‘what god demands’ in ways that now clearly contradict what we can read ourselves.
Islamic teachings can be interpreted in many different ways, and there are at least 2 major schools of thought (Sunni/Shia), and two major regional differences. What is taught//practiced in most of the middle, and what is taught/practiced in Indonesia being clear differentiators, for example.
But the Koran and its Hadiths are generally relatively accessible, if one looks, and it’s not hard to find analysis of different elements of it online. Unlike the Bible, there are explicit calls for the devout to study it directly. Also, unlike the Christian Bible, it also tends to be less - chaotic and internally conflicting. Comparing Matthew and Leviticus would give anyone whiplash, for example.
As to if it means believers must go to war with specific ‘irritating’ local tribes, or means all unbelievers, depends on who you ask. But most agree it means unbelievers in general. Many of the ‘problem’ groups in recent history with the west have explicitly used it to justify their attacks (among many others).
There are specific carve outs/exceptions for Jews and Christians (though also corresponding ‘give them no quarter unless they convert/behave as Muslims’ sections!), and in general the expectation is that for them to be protected they need to respect Islamic law and behave accordingly. Which isn’t really possible, for the most part, without significant changes in behavior/belief.
So depending on how ‘close to the book’ someone is being, and if sections are being ignored, depends on how much someone is going to believe/follow. Notably, Indonesia is widely seen is ‘Islam light’, but they do follow quite a bit of it (like how marriages work, expectations for women), that the west would struggle with. Middle eastern countries, communities in Pakistan, India, etc. tend to be the hardest core.
And once you understand the nature of the teaching, it is hard to not see the western way of life as being the personification of Iblis (the great satan - the tester of faith). After all, who wouldn’t want to chill out and drink beer, watch TV, and ignore the (often difficult) teachings of God? join us…, it’s fun! And don’t worry, there is no actual god anyway.
And like the old Christian Church during the crusades, government and madrases (religious schools) tend to be intermixed, which of course causes ‘problems’ similar to
the crusades.
Thankfully not to the full extent, right now anyway.
I appreciate your long and thoughtful answer. I am actually Muslim, and from the Middle-East. I agree with most of what you said, I only disagree with the premise that Islam is an inherently violent religion. While I usually ignore such statements, seeing this atrocious conflict in Sudan being reduced to "Islam bad" especially when it's primarily non-Arab Muslims being genocided just irked me too much.
To your point, you're right that the Quran and the Hadith make some statements that to an unlearned individual's interpretation, appear to promote total war against the unbelievers. As you also point out, this is not unique to Islam, as demonstrated by the Crusades for example. I don't think the relative accessibility of the Quran today is a valid point, as in the current day and age anyone can pick up the Bible and read something like Matthew 10:34 [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010%3A...] and claim that Jesus ordered Christians to fight.
Continuing to use Christianity as an example, today you don't get that many extremist Christian groups because most places with significant Christian populations are well developed, generally have highly educated populations, robust political processes, and strong rule of law. Back to the map OP posted, if you overlay it with a map of Christian populations, you'll find a strong overlap in central Africa. Central Africa was recently decolonized, has unresolved political issues, and is majority Christian, as a result you get extremist organizations like the LRA forming [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army_insur...].
My point is, it's easy to manipulate some holy text or another to claim it orders to fight the disbelievers. I would say the average Joe who does not need to worry about how tomorrow he will feed his family and educate his children will never get up in arms to kill someone just because of a cherry-picked verse from a holy book. If that happens and this Joe gets up to murder his neighbor, either Joe is a psychopath at heart, or the core reason is something else. If that wasn't the case, then Islam has a huge problem with disobedience, because its 2 billion followers aren't slaughtering everyone right now.
Anecdote time. I had the pleasure of acquainting someone who seriously thought about joining ISIS during their heyday. He was in high-school with me, I didn't know him very closely, but enough to paint a picture. He lived in a dysfunctional home with a terrible father who was too harsh and too violent. He lived in the street most of his childhood, basically treating his home as where he goes to sleep. He came from a poor background, was rock bottom academically, all while living in a country where most youth do not have high hopes for the future. He also had a history of drug abuse and generally thuggish behavior. On a spiritual level, the dude did not give a single iota about any teaching of Islam.
It was 2015. In the few months leading up to his arrest, he had a change of mind and heart. His closer friends tell me he started joining some FB groups where ISIS was doing recruitment. Having been exposed to a couple of recruitment videos myself, I imagine it would have been super lucrative for someone like him. They were always boasting about the loot the fighters would get from battle, how in a couple of months of fighting you could have your own house and land, a nice truck, a subservient wife, all while being super badass with guns and fancy combat gear AND God would love you and send you to heaven if you die (but you wouldn't, because look at the map, ISIS is unstoppable). It was almost like a parody version of the American dream. No need for a higher education, job interviews, hard work, or knowing the right people. If you can pick up a gun and don't mind killing these worthless scum who don't know any better, we can take care of the rest!
Somehow he was arrested and was imprisoned before he could join ISIS. He was released from prison a couple of years ago, and from what I hear some special prison treatment took its toll and now he wouldn't hurt a fly. When this guy tried to join ISIS, was his sole motivation the belief that God earnestly ordered Muslims to indiscriminately fight the unbelievers? A better question: would he have joined them without the promise of wealth beyond his wildest dreams and a chance to start anew?
Please don't fulminate, or make personal attacks like "Typical Hasbara lying", or use capitals for emphasis, or post flamebait or engage in ideological battle on HN. We've had to remind you to observe the guidelines before. Topics like this normally don't get discussed on HN because they inevitably turn into flame wars. If you can't participate in a thread like this without doing it in a flamewar style, please don't participate at all. It benefits nobody, and we have to ban accounts that continue to engage in this style of activity.
Hmm, and the outright deceitful and insidious nature of the post I was responding to? Where someone twists the facts in their very first sentence to hide the fact that the victims of that slaughter were themselves Muslim - just to justify an Islamophobic tirade for the remainder of their post ...
what do you call that? And how exactly does one counter such obvious lies of omission, without using the word "lying"?
"Sorry dear chap, but I believe you are intentionally hiding key facts here,namely the identity of the victims themselves"?
And btw, where was the flamebait? My 2nd paragraph is as close to a precise summary of what's actually happening as you can get, without hiding the identities of anyone involved.
Some version of the second sentence could be fine if you omitted the all-caps words and belligerent tone. The phrases "Typical Hasbara lying", "Birds of a feather flock together" are flamebait, along with the overall hostile and escalatory tone of that comment, along with this entire comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45788190.
This style of commenting is a pattern extending back at least a year, maybe longer. We've already asked you before to do better.
The comment you replied to was also flagged and killed, and also wasn't what we like to see, but that doesn’t justify or excuse further escalation from you.
If you expect others to conduct themselves to a high standard, you need to show a sincere intent to conduct yourself to a high standard, and it makes it harder for us to take action against an earlier comment when a later comment escalates so egregiously.
None of this is personal or specific to this comment or any issue. The guidelines have been in place since HN began and have changed little. They apply equally to everyone. By participating on HN, you agree to adhere to the guidelines. If you don't like HN's guidelines, you can choose not to participate.
I don't see the original comment tying the tensions to Islam anywhere. And yes, the conflict is heavily tied to ethnicities - RSF is Arab-dominated and has been systematically genociding other ethnicities, and both sides are effectively enabling a resource grab for their backers.
Arab vs non-Arab conflicts are also nothing new. See Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Somalia, etc.
> There’s also the Islamic Arab monarchies (RSF) vs the Muslim Brotherhood (SAF).
Qatar is an Arab monarchy and they are backing the SAF.
RSF are described as anti-islamist on Wikipedia. Is that wrong?
It's worth noting there are islamists on both side. Anyone who characterizes this as purely religious or ethnic has a bridge to sell. This conflict would have died years ago if it weren't for foreign actors putting their hands up Sudan's ass
The number of violent conflicts initiated by various islamist groups is insane [1]. There is something wrong here that goes beyond funding. It's possible to acknowledge that without being islamophobic.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflict...
The heatmap may as well represent a map of recently decolonized areas with unresolved political issues, and just so happens that many of these places have significant Muslim populations.
If you read the Koran and Hadiths, there are numerous statements about the true Muslims duty being to spread Islam - at the point of the sword being a well supported one, scripture wise.
Abu Bakr [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr] and even Mohammed himself [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_expeditions_of_Muhamma...].
It has never been a particularly ‘turn the other cheek’ religion.
Isn't that true of Christianity as well? If it is the true Muslim's duty to spread Islam by the sword, then why did it take centuries for populations to convert to Islam in places like Egypt which were conquered by leaders who knew Mohammed personally? Why did places which were never conquered by Muslim caliphates like Indonesia have significant Muslim populations today?
> Isn't that true of Christianity as well?
No, definitely not with the same authority. If you take the Bible as the equivalent of the Quran, and the church fathers as the equivalent of the hadiths, neither has any endorsement of conversion through threats of violence. Jesus was never a political or military leader, nor were the first few generations of Christian leaders.
I cannot give as clear an answer with regard to islam, because I do not know enough in depth, but there are a variety of interpretations. There was persecution of religious minorities in the Muslim empires, but mass slaughter of those who refused to convert would have inspired rebellion. The conversion did happen in places like Egypt and Syria and Persia and there was coercion.
As for Indonesia, the GP did not claim Islam spread only by the sword.
Some comparative theology time I guess?
Notably, I never said ‘by the sword’ was the only way. There is definitely a history of a number of religions doing it though!
First, I am under no illusions that what a religions book (or common formal teachings) says necessarily matches what its stated followers actually do.
Judaism essentially forbids ‘recruiting’, and it is quite difficult to convert. Mainly because Judaism is essentially ‘this group of people have a special deal with god/are god’s special people’.
Christianity has very mixed message (especially depending on which version of the Bible!) with some explicit calls to convert others - but without any calls to violence associated with them I can see [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2028%3A...]. John the Baptist being a prime ‘doer’. Also, there are explicit calls to ‘turn the other cheek/not retaliate’, such as [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%3A3...].
Which makes the crusades particularly crazy/insane of course. Jesus was clearly non-violent and didn’t want people going out killing each other over anything he was saying.
At the time, the Church (now Catholic Church) heavily controlled ‘the word’, by insisting everything be done in Latin - which they were then the gatekeepers for. They also meddled (or flat out controlled!) national politics, and this gave them immense power to control the narrative of ‘what god demands’ in ways that now clearly contradict what we can read ourselves.
Islamic teachings can be interpreted in many different ways, and there are at least 2 major schools of thought (Sunni/Shia), and two major regional differences. What is taught//practiced in most of the middle, and what is taught/practiced in Indonesia being clear differentiators, for example.
But the Koran and its Hadiths are generally relatively accessible, if one looks, and it’s not hard to find analysis of different elements of it online. Unlike the Bible, there are explicit calls for the devout to study it directly. Also, unlike the Christian Bible, it also tends to be less - chaotic and internally conflicting. Comparing Matthew and Leviticus would give anyone whiplash, for example.
For instance - Quran 9:5 [https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/71323/what-is-the-...].
As to if it means believers must go to war with specific ‘irritating’ local tribes, or means all unbelievers, depends on who you ask. But most agree it means unbelievers in general. Many of the ‘problem’ groups in recent history with the west have explicitly used it to justify their attacks (among many others).
There are specific carve outs/exceptions for Jews and Christians (though also corresponding ‘give them no quarter unless they convert/behave as Muslims’ sections!), and in general the expectation is that for them to be protected they need to respect Islamic law and behave accordingly. Which isn’t really possible, for the most part, without significant changes in behavior/belief.
So depending on how ‘close to the book’ someone is being, and if sections are being ignored, depends on how much someone is going to believe/follow. Notably, Indonesia is widely seen is ‘Islam light’, but they do follow quite a bit of it (like how marriages work, expectations for women), that the west would struggle with. Middle eastern countries, communities in Pakistan, India, etc. tend to be the hardest core.
And once you understand the nature of the teaching, it is hard to not see the western way of life as being the personification of Iblis (the great satan - the tester of faith). After all, who wouldn’t want to chill out and drink beer, watch TV, and ignore the (often difficult) teachings of God? join us…, it’s fun! And don’t worry, there is no actual god anyway.
And like the old Christian Church during the crusades, government and madrases (religious schools) tend to be intermixed, which of course causes ‘problems’ similar to the crusades.
Thankfully not to the full extent, right now anyway.
I appreciate your long and thoughtful answer. I am actually Muslim, and from the Middle-East. I agree with most of what you said, I only disagree with the premise that Islam is an inherently violent religion. While I usually ignore such statements, seeing this atrocious conflict in Sudan being reduced to "Islam bad" especially when it's primarily non-Arab Muslims being genocided just irked me too much.
To your point, you're right that the Quran and the Hadith make some statements that to an unlearned individual's interpretation, appear to promote total war against the unbelievers. As you also point out, this is not unique to Islam, as demonstrated by the Crusades for example. I don't think the relative accessibility of the Quran today is a valid point, as in the current day and age anyone can pick up the Bible and read something like Matthew 10:34 [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010%3A...] and claim that Jesus ordered Christians to fight.
Continuing to use Christianity as an example, today you don't get that many extremist Christian groups because most places with significant Christian populations are well developed, generally have highly educated populations, robust political processes, and strong rule of law. Back to the map OP posted, if you overlay it with a map of Christian populations, you'll find a strong overlap in central Africa. Central Africa was recently decolonized, has unresolved political issues, and is majority Christian, as a result you get extremist organizations like the LRA forming [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army_insur...].
My point is, it's easy to manipulate some holy text or another to claim it orders to fight the disbelievers. I would say the average Joe who does not need to worry about how tomorrow he will feed his family and educate his children will never get up in arms to kill someone just because of a cherry-picked verse from a holy book. If that happens and this Joe gets up to murder his neighbor, either Joe is a psychopath at heart, or the core reason is something else. If that wasn't the case, then Islam has a huge problem with disobedience, because its 2 billion followers aren't slaughtering everyone right now.
Anecdote time. I had the pleasure of acquainting someone who seriously thought about joining ISIS during their heyday. He was in high-school with me, I didn't know him very closely, but enough to paint a picture. He lived in a dysfunctional home with a terrible father who was too harsh and too violent. He lived in the street most of his childhood, basically treating his home as where he goes to sleep. He came from a poor background, was rock bottom academically, all while living in a country where most youth do not have high hopes for the future. He also had a history of drug abuse and generally thuggish behavior. On a spiritual level, the dude did not give a single iota about any teaching of Islam.
It was 2015. In the few months leading up to his arrest, he had a change of mind and heart. His closer friends tell me he started joining some FB groups where ISIS was doing recruitment. Having been exposed to a couple of recruitment videos myself, I imagine it would have been super lucrative for someone like him. They were always boasting about the loot the fighters would get from battle, how in a couple of months of fighting you could have your own house and land, a nice truck, a subservient wife, all while being super badass with guns and fancy combat gear AND God would love you and send you to heaven if you die (but you wouldn't, because look at the map, ISIS is unstoppable). It was almost like a parody version of the American dream. No need for a higher education, job interviews, hard work, or knowing the right people. If you can pick up a gun and don't mind killing these worthless scum who don't know any better, we can take care of the rest!
Somehow he was arrested and was imprisoned before he could join ISIS. He was released from prison a couple of years ago, and from what I hear some special prison treatment took its toll and now he wouldn't hurt a fly. When this guy tried to join ISIS, was his sole motivation the belief that God earnestly ordered Muslims to indiscriminately fight the unbelievers? A better question: would he have joined them without the promise of wealth beyond his wildest dreams and a chance to start anew?
[flagged]
Looking into the past everyone looks like a barbarian. And yes, the use of the word was meant as sarcasm.
[dead]
Wait until you hear about how europeans behave—it makes the islamists look downright civilizing
Or the Israelian or Russian. It almost seems like it's more about power than religion per se.
[flagged]
Please don't fulminate, or make personal attacks like "Typical Hasbara lying", or use capitals for emphasis, or post flamebait or engage in ideological battle on HN. We've had to remind you to observe the guidelines before. Topics like this normally don't get discussed on HN because they inevitably turn into flame wars. If you can't participate in a thread like this without doing it in a flamewar style, please don't participate at all. It benefits nobody, and we have to ban accounts that continue to engage in this style of activity.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Hmm, and the outright deceitful and insidious nature of the post I was responding to? Where someone twists the facts in their very first sentence to hide the fact that the victims of that slaughter were themselves Muslim - just to justify an Islamophobic tirade for the remainder of their post ...
what do you call that? And how exactly does one counter such obvious lies of omission, without using the word "lying"?
"Sorry dear chap, but I believe you are intentionally hiding key facts here,namely the identity of the victims themselves"?
And btw, where was the flamebait? My 2nd paragraph is as close to a precise summary of what's actually happening as you can get, without hiding the identities of anyone involved.
Some version of the second sentence could be fine if you omitted the all-caps words and belligerent tone. The phrases "Typical Hasbara lying", "Birds of a feather flock together" are flamebait, along with the overall hostile and escalatory tone of that comment, along with this entire comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45788190.
This style of commenting is a pattern extending back at least a year, maybe longer. We've already asked you before to do better.
The comment you replied to was also flagged and killed, and also wasn't what we like to see, but that doesn’t justify or excuse further escalation from you.
If you expect others to conduct themselves to a high standard, you need to show a sincere intent to conduct yourself to a high standard, and it makes it harder for us to take action against an earlier comment when a later comment escalates so egregiously.
None of this is personal or specific to this comment or any issue. The guidelines have been in place since HN began and have changed little. They apply equally to everyone. By participating on HN, you agree to adhere to the guidelines. If you don't like HN's guidelines, you can choose not to participate.
I don't see the original comment tying the tensions to Islam anywhere. And yes, the conflict is heavily tied to ethnicities - RSF is Arab-dominated and has been systematically genociding other ethnicities, and both sides are effectively enabling a resource grab for their backers.
Arab vs non-Arab conflicts are also nothing new. See Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Somalia, etc.