Europeans need to wake up.
There is an obvious rift between Europeans, European leaders, and the US. Europeans seem tired of the US and it's policies, however simultaneously are unaware that the cushy "European" lifestyle they love only exists because of the US. Which is something that European leaders are keenly aware of.
So it creates a situation where the leadership will constantly bend at the knee to the US's demands, and the populace will get progressively more and more anti-US. However in it's current state, Europe is stuck under the thumb of the US on three sides - tech, military, and energy.
The only "clean" way to rectify this problem is for Europeans to slash regulations, slash social programs, and dramatically increase annual working hours. All things which are the antithesis of contemporary Europeans ideals. Europe desperately needs a modern industry hub, right now it's all US and China on the board.
I would say that the cushy lifestyle of Europe and the US depends on the cheap labor in China and Asia in general combined with many companies who operate and own capital there being owned by European and American companies. Not sure which calculus would lead one to conclude that the US is the sole reason of European lifestyle.
> the cushy "European" lifestyle they love only exists because of the US
Could you elaborate ?
World-wide global trade security and defense is made possible mostly due to the American military. Hard to import/export when cargo ships get sunk.
Sure, look at the bottom countries
https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/hours-worked.html
The lifeblood of the European economy is still the same things that were the lifeblood 30 years ago.
There is no tech scene in Europe, despite tech being at the global economic forefront for those 30 years.
The US spent more per capita than Europe did on support to Ukraine. It also provided the lions share of weapons and armaments.
And now Europe is turning to the US to supply most of it's energy. Which is methane. Heaven forbid the EU give green investment funds special economic rules to foster growth, it might generate a few billionaires.
Europe is a trust fund state burning old money and milking old industry. It desperately needs to build its own independence. Russia coming knocking seems to have been a bit of a wakeup call, but even still single child Europeans are sitting on the beaches of the Mediterranean complaining that they cannot retire at 55.
Wake up.
How does slashing social programs and dramatically increasing working hours solve the problem of a missing industry hub, or energy independence? These seem entirely disconnected.
If European countries want to survive as independent powers rather than as vassal states of the USA and/or China (and this is still in doubt) then they will eventually have to re-industrialize. Like if they want to have any stuff then someone has to make the stuff. They're also going to have to rebuild their militaries instead of counting on the USA to defend them. All of that will require an enormous amount of capital and the money will have to come from somewhere. Taxing the rich won't be enough, which means the only possible course of action is to cut social spending and force their citizens to work harder. This will be unpopular and cause a lot of protests by naive people who don't want to face the harsh realities of modern geopolitics and natural resource constraints.
West Germany had a very strong army and better social systems than now until 1990. It could easily have built nuclear weapons, but wasn't allowed to.
The dichotomy between social programs and weapons (a variation of the old butter vs. guns nonsense) is false, and I suspect is just used by some people here who want to slash social programs no matter what.
The situation prior to 1990 is hardly relevant today. Back then West Germany was still coasting on Marshall Plan largesse, and had low labor costs due to a favorable demographic profile and huge numbers of Gastarbeiter. That situation no longer obtains, plus they're still trying to develop the former East Germany after Soviet occupation wrecked it. Now if Germany wants to survive as an independent power with freedom of action then they'll have to make some tough choices.
If you want to claim that butter vs. guns is nonsense then please be specific and explain exactly where the money will come from. And let's not have any vague non-answers like "tax the rich" or "cut waste".
The Marshall plan is overrated:
https://www.nzz.ch/english/how-the-marshall-plan-is-overly-r...
https://mises.org/mises-wire/marshall-plan-isnt-success-stor...
“Britain received twice as much aid as West Germany did, but economic growth in Britain dramatically lagged behind that of the Germans.”
Germany needs nukes and a navy to project power to solve the energy dependence. It isn't that expensive and could be done by eliminating waste in the procurement process. The money is already there. Oh yes, and tax the rich, especially landowners with multiple properties.
(Why would I listen to you preemptively ruling out viable strategies? I do not take orders here.)
So in other words you're proposing more wishful thinking and inaction. Germany has made many attempts to eliminate waste already with nothing much to show for it.
As for their so-called "navy" it's a government jobs program with uniforms. Their warships aren't even able to defend themselves, let alone project power. What a joke.
https://www.twz.com/news-features/german-navy-confirms-its-u...
> The only "clean" way to rectify this problem is for Europeans to slash regulations, slash social programs, and dramatically increase annual working hours. All things which are the antithesis of contemporary Europeans ideals. Europe desperately needs a modern industry hub, right now it's all US and China on the board.
What an absurdity to say that the only way out for Europeans is to follow the U.S. in their hyper-capitalist folly, as if speed-running their way to more concentration of power & capital was Europe's only salvation.
Yes, Europeans have to accept the fact that they will have to work longer given the current demographic trends and Brussels needs to make sure EU regulations don't impede innovation. But for the the most part European leaders just need to initiate a strategic shift and move on from the dogma that Europe's success is tied to U.S. dependency.
What has so far looked like pragmatism on the part of EU leaders is increasingly looking like a lack of courage to assert the EU's power and chart a path of their own
> however simultaneously are unaware that the cushy "European" lifestyle they love only exists because of the US
Why do so many Americans believe this? I would like to see some real accounting of the US-EU relationship. Americans only focus on the supposed defense relationship, where supposedly the EU is under investing because the US will supposedly come to the rescue. Every single other aspect of the US-EU relationship is ignored.
Don't even try, you won't get a reasonable answer. I've had a discussion with a similar commenter here quite recently, and in the end, they ignored my arguments and still pretended that I admitted that "Europeans view Americans as suckers."
Even if you were to show them data, you could never convince them, as their position is based on emotions. And you can't argue someone out of a position using facts, if that person didn't arrive at that position using facts to begin with.
Because there has been a major trade imbalance for decades, and Europe has been underspending for defense and being more than happy with the US tax payer paying for its security.
Things were fine in Germany under the moderate Merkel government, which emphasized deescalation with Russia until the Cowboys Lindsey Graham, Victoria Nuland and John McCain came along and fanned the flames.
After the illegal and horrible Russian invasion (which was provoked nonetheless) the EU got progressively drawn into the US proxy war. They were criticized for not doing enough in 2022 by the US. In 2025 on the other hand they were criticized for wanting to prolong the war by Trump.
The EU pays the bill, the US reaps its benefits from weakening Russia, which is the entire goal of the slow moving war of attrition. Successes include US dominance in Syria, attempted dominance in Venezuela and possible Greenland.
Ruining the EU's social systems will achieve nothing. This is an energy problem and the US tries to control all choke points of energy delivery to the EU.
> Things were fine in Germany under the moderate Merkel government
Disagree completely.
I would put significant part of the blame for the whole Ukraine disaster on western reaction in 2014, when Crimea was annexed (thats not to say that Putin isnt an imperialistic asshole, just that this could have been avoided regardless).
The "Merkel policy" (link EU/Russia by trade to prevent war) is a solid long-term plan, but the EU needed to demonstrate willingness to reduce that trade (even when it hurt themselves) to punish expansionism/destabilizing behavior.
It failed to do this almost completely. This made it clear to anyone that a (successful) annexation of the whole Ukraine would have gone (mostly) unpunished.
In this case, I blame the Merkel government for putting the financial well-being of its citizens over ethical principles, but a big part of the problem is that most voters are too stupid and uninformed to even realize that such a tradeoff is being made anyway, and react to economical signals only.
> In this case, I blame the Merkel government for putting the financial well-being of its citizens over ethical principles,
Its much worse than that in terms of realpolitik: the gains were short-term, the costs will be paid for over decades, and disproportionately allocated to germanys eastern neighbors like the Poles and Estonians who are at increased risk of Russian aggression.
It really was such a bad tradeoff and I don't think this is hindsight: Russia is basically doing what is has been doing for centuries.
Complete failure of the German political system between 1990-2020+
Ukraine itself traded with Russia from 2024-2025 and collected transit fees for Russian gas.
Nuland and others were active in Ukraine before and during the Maidan revolution.
But please, continue to blame Germany, blow up its pipelines, send 1,000,000 refugees who collect social security (the topic of this subthread, do the slash-social-security hawks here want to evict the Ukrainians and send them to the front lines)?
> which was provoked nonetheless
This is misinformation.
> the US proxy war
This is misinformation.
Use your favorite search engine to find the "rand corporation overextending and unbalancing russia" paper. There are dozens of similar papers, also from Brookings: "path to persia"
By the way, the Trump administration also perpetuated this "misinformation" when they pretended to seek peace in January 2025.
> the "rand corporation overextending and unbalancing russia" paper.
This document does not say what you said it says.
> also from Brookings: "path to persia"
This document is about Iran, and has nothing to do with Ukraine.