As a US-based developer I do not feel threatened by the "cheap" offshore developers I encounter. I've repeatedly been hired to clean up after offshore developers who:
* lied about their capabilities/experience to get the job,
* failed to grok requirements through the language barrier,
* were unable to fix critical bugs in their own code base,
* committed buggy chatgpt output verbatim,
* and could not be held liable because their firm is effectively beyond the reach of the US legal system.
In a couple of projects I've seen a single US based developer replace an entire offshore team, deliver a superior result, and provide management with a much more responsive communication loop, in 1% of the billable hours. The difference in value is so stark that one client even fired the VP who'd lead the offshoring boondoggle.
Software talent is simply not as fungible as some MBAs would like to believe.
I've worked alongside (but never with) offshore developers, often from the big consultancy companies. One thing they tend to do is place one competent developer and a dozen less-so, so that the work gets done by the one but they get paid for a dozen people.
But I also believe the managers hiring offshore employees are fully aware of this. If they aren't then they're not very good managers and/or have no idea what they're doing.
The offshore people mainly work on SAP and legacy systems though; it turns out it's very hard to find willing or competent people in Europe that actually want to work on / with SAP. However, foreign workers have less qualms about learning stuff like that, since the money is really good.
Yes this is the agency model here in Croatia. You would get one senior developer covering 2-3 projects and a few junior/mid developers working full time.
I have a feeling it's not working that well anymore because the people covering those juniors just earn more going to work straight for the client and they have less burden on them. Used to be harder so the agencies had leverage, nowadays even big companies will hire individual B2B contractor.
The only management experience I've had was as a team lead at a US-based consulting company. It was really stressful because I felt like I was managing a team that wasn't capable of doing the work. I was expected to spend at least some of my time coding, and was responsible for the overall project. This is the first time it has occurred to me that this might have been intentionally set up to exploit me while maximizing the amount we can charge the client.
> this might have been intentionally set up to exploit me while maximizing the amount we can charge the client
This was the sense I got from a friend's situation: he works for a consulting firm managing a large offshore team billed as "Oracle Experts" who are in reality completely incompetent. (Side note: How would a bunch of young third-world devs go about mastering a niche technology to the expert level?) The offshore team meets their contractual obligation by committing nonsense SLOC everyday that contains vague references to the requirements. But as the quarters roll by, it never actually meets requirements. So my friend learned the only way to deliver is for him to personally implement the solutions while juggling semi-daily meetings with the clients and the offshore team. The client is happy in the end, but it all takes a lot longer than it would he could drop the offshore team entirely.
In this situation, the value of the offshore team is they make the client believe that 1) their problems can only be solved by a large team and 2) they are paying less for this team than they would otherwise.
we couldn't find good SAP security folks to save our life at a previous job. 900/hr for consultants.
regular "line" SAP admins had to be found in Mexico and brought up on TN visas -- still well paid but generally pretty good, doubly so because we had a Mexico City office and could retain the staff even after they rotated back to MX.
For a counterpoint, I’ve worked with many great engineers in Latin America who are smart, capable, and in the same time zones as the US
I’ve worked with awful, stereotypically garbage offshore teams. I’ve worked with quality offshore teams. The difference was money. The quality teams made less than, but nearly as much as an American worker. Maybe not a FAANG guy or a New York / SF worker, but all those small cities in flyover states? They came in 20-30k under, perhaps.
Language l, cultural, and time barriers still come into play regardless of how good they are, however.
Likewise! Though Latin American engineers also tend to be some of the priciest offshore developers (along with European engineers). Excellent engineers, but there's still some churn from the friction of hiring and maintaining teams overseas.
As posted above, we had great success with Mexican hires out of Mexico City.
General perception was the universities there produced qualified graduates who were not paper tigers (or didn't lie about creds).
Rates for them were pretty good, and we had better alignment with timezones and holidays.
Reasonably good alignment in terms of legal and HR issues -- easier to enforce than, like, Bangladesh
The NAFTA / USMCA / whatever its called now Visa made it easy for them to come across the border for a few years as well. Pay bump for a while plus a chance to work in HQ or the IT office directly, make fat stacks, and then rotate back to MX and buy a nice house. The Mexico City PMs were also instrumental for bridging the language gap when running projects in other LATAM countries.
Trump's ICE might be the end of that approach tho
Maybe it makes sense to start sending Americans to CDMX... It's a city I'd love to spend some time in.
We find it incredibly hard to hire these people. It turns out a lot of US companies are also interested in smart, capable, cheap engineers in Central Time Zone.
We all had similar experience(s). But if you have been around long enough you will experience also highly competent and sometimes outright brilliant folks who run circles around most of us. A bit less common in India than say eastern Europe, but thats about it.
Anyway highly competent and experienced folks will always thrive regardless of environment. Its the quiet rest that should be worried from multiple angles.
That's not the talent not being fungible but the trust and accountability not being fungible. Which is a structural issue and unlikely to be resolved. I suspect it's more profitable for a lot of VPs for offshore labor to be as inefficient as possible.
Exactly, its an incentives issue (see my comment as I talk about it in detail there)
More or less my experience too.
But at the same time, I doubt there is anything special about me or my US born coworkers. We aren't superior just because of the continent we live in. But offshore work is almost as a rule terrible quality done by people that are frustrating to work with. It doesn't make sense
This experience most likely because dealing with offshore software farms. Those are the same shit as their western counterparts and even worse because of language and logistics. On an individual scale however one can for example easily find great developers in Eastern Europe, and former USSR countries that do amazing job and for very attractive price. Just not dirt cheap.
And yes. There is nothing special about North America as far as quality of software developers in general. Mostly you get average buzzword indoctrinated not so great people with some amazing expectation salary wise.
> and could not be held liable because their firm is effectively beyond the reach of the US legal system.
this is a big one. last F500 I was at dropped Tata for several internal support teams due to belief that they were messing with proprietary code and/or had screwed things up so badly they warranted a lawsuit -- but had no legal levers to chase them for damages.
ditto for the one-off programmer who sexually harasses people while remote -- how does a remote worker sue, or get sued, and under what law?
or finance / tax -- who pays the payroll tax?
People expect that they can pay 0.05x in the Philippines or India, or 0.1x in Poland or Estonia, when that's just not going to happen. I've heard a few people say the multiplier starts at something like 0.4x or more for equivalent talent.
Since that comes with all the disadvantages and risks you'd expect from splitting your team across two countries and operating in a market you don't understand, at that price point a US company should probably start thinking about spinning up a cheaper team in, I dunno, Dallas rather than offshoring.
Firstly, I want to say that we are "cheap" because things are dirt cheap here.
Now, I am not a software developer but in high school, but I have my brother/cousins working in the software dev industry and here are my thoughts.
>language barrier: I genuinely don't know how incompetent developers you can hire, I mean sure if you hire extremely shitty developers but even that's rare.
Most people here are comfortable enough with english, in the sense that literally anyone can speak english & mostly get the point across. Yes, I have heard of some misarrangements but I don't think that its really much of an issue.
Now some outsourcing companies are mass recruiters who recruit tech from Cs colleges where noone recruited them (Tata consultancy services, infosys?) and the thing with them is that they don't even pay the mediocre expectations of a developer even in INDIA, they are basically exploiting junior developers and are compared with govt. insitutions in my country given how slow they are.
My brother works in a decent Consultancy services but he says that there are a lot of inefficiencies in the system.
He worked on a project and we estimated and he got 1% or less than 1% of the work that he MOSTLY did. and so my brother has way more incentive to freelance and get a "remote job" not consultancy.
I think that you confused yourself with remote job and consultancy part. Remote jobs hiring / freelancing indians is still cheaper than a consultancy imo who are parasites on the developers.
My brother works in a consultancy right now because the job market is shitty and he has gotten offers 4x his current salary from countries like switzerland and america. Yet, my family doesn't want him to do the 4x income work because he is already working a job and they don't want him to burn out
And they don't want him to leave the job because its "safe", you can't trust these startups etc. given the volatile nature and if they fail, then whoops the job market is really messed up right now, even in India and also arrange marriage is a huge thing and the girl's family usually checks the company that the boy works in and they usually get fishy if its remote job (and I mean, for good reason)
Also trust me some indians can definitely work in american timezones too but that is a little tough. But I mean, we are okay if you might call us once or twice late at night when its day in america and you have something really urgent. Atleast I am okay with that.
And you could pay 2x the salary the normal indian dev gets and I feel like even that would be less than an american dev. This can really filter some devs to get those with seniority or good projects.
Its a problem of incentives for consultancies (which is what you seem to hate) and maybe that's a bit fair given how much inefficiencies I see in that system. Just remote hire directly (I suppose)
you're delusional. of course if you take the cheapest possible offshore workers you get terrible results when compared to an experienced engineer in a developed country.
but it's a bit like ikea: if you buy their cheapest stuff it will fall apart after a few months but their "expensive" lines are still far cheaper than the competition but the same quality.
you might think you're a solid mahogany table but at the end of the day you're probably the same table as being sold at ikea, just more expensive
GitHub copilot already replaces 50% of what offshore talent could do. Can’t imagine someone spinning up an offshore dev hut instead of buying more AI.
Exactly my experience.