I don't mind tipping for exceptional service, I do however have a major issue with the obligation of tipping. It really should not be on the customers to pay the employees salaries directly.
I don't think we should be tipping at all, even for exceptional service. The job is the job, and the employer should be paying the full amount that job is worth. If the employee is doing it exceptionally well, going above and beyond, the employer should reward them with a raise, same as for salaried positions.
That's assuming the employer values that above-and-beyond-ness, of course. If not, they won't give that raise, and employees will eventually settle on a level of service that the employer is paying for. If that's good enough for the customers, that's fine. If not, that's an opportunity for a competitor to pay employees more so they'll serve customers better.
Customers should not be put in the awkward position of feeling like they should be augmenting people's wages, even if it's on top of an already-sufficient living wage. Wages paid is a negotiation between employer and employee. Customers should not be involved, beyond paying the listed or contracted/agreed-upon price.
I live in a country with near zero tipping culture.
For the most part I find the food gets to my table at some point but I'm rarely particularly happy with customer service. It's sometimes an awkward negotiation to get their attention or to ask something. The opposite was true in my time living in the US - soft skills, fast response, engagement are standard. And I've been on both sides of that in food service.
Now, the logic of what youre talking about makes perfect sense and I agree with that in principle. And yet there is something about dining that is somehow different. Escapes that definition.
There are also times I find that exchanging money is more honest. I want you to serve me, I'm paying you, I don't have to keep at the back of my mind a question whether I'm asking something beyond what your boss expects/pays you. I like that about the US - it's brutal but that's reality.
Don't get me wrong, I live in EU for a reason, but some things here are made unnecessarily complicated and oblique too.
I haven't spent almost any time in Europe, but in the US at some point it seems to have gone from a setup to incentivize that "soft skills, fast response, engagement" to one that I don't feel does that much due to the social obligation. When your worst case scenario is 18% and your best case is likely 20% + rounded up, who bothers to change their behavior? In my experience it's more like a commission than a tip, and that's because the only real impact is it encourages the waiters to remember to promote expensive alcoholic drinks before and during the meal, since you can earn way more money getting 18% from a table who orders 2 drinks than you do by earning 21% from a table drinking water. As a commission, it should be paid by the employer.
I call tipping the "A*hole discount" because only someone who is comfortable being seen as one would consider tipping 0% or even 10%. And servers will tell you that if you receive terrible, horrible, very bad service you should never tip zero, you should speak to the manager instead (since yadda yadda, the tips are for everyone, you don't know whose fault it is, etc). So instead of tips being a way to reward good service, it's actually just a discount reserved for people who are so uncouth that (A) they don't care if everyone at their table thinks they're an ass, and (B) they don't mind taking food off the table of low-wage workers (very low in states that have the horrible policy of a lower "tipped" min wage). Do those people really deserve a discount?
> There are also times I find that exchanging money is more honest. I want you to serve me, I'm paying you, I don't have to keep at the back of my mind a question whether I'm asking something beyond what your boss expects/pays you. I like that about the US - it's brutal but that's reality.
But isn't this describing tipping? You're having to ask yourself, "Is this service good enough for a tip? How much of a tip?" instead of just exchanging money for the service and that's it.
It is and that's why my point is that there is nuance here.
I had more fun and more satisfaction working in food service in the US than in the EU. There was also more real opportunity right there on the spot to do the thing and get more.
Like yeah, you're having to ask yourself and that's friction. But shouldn't there be a friction when you're being served by someone who is an equal? I've seen folks treat service like garbage in the EU because that exchange obscures the fact that there is an exchange of money. And I've seen service fall back on apathy.
But this is just one way to look at it - ideally it should be exactly as you describe - good service, simple exchange at specified price and confidence that the service is adequately paid for the job.
Only issue is that even in the EU this is often not the truth and restaurants would never ever afford to actually hire full-time employment contracts.
> Like yeah, you're having to ask yourself and that's friction. But shouldn't there be a friction when you're being served by someone who is an equal? I've seen folks treat service like garbage in the EU because that exchange obscures the fact that there is an exchange of money. And I've seen service fall back on apathy.
Interestingly, I arrive at an entirely separate conclusion - there is no way for equality in a relationship in which one party holds your financial security (for lack of better words) in their hands. How can the waiter be your equal in that situation, when they might have to act just to ensure they can make the money they need?
Yes, I have also been thinking how a similar reward system would work without tipping. Just use a bonus system based on customer feedback. And the flow could be very similar to how it is with tipping.
It's not worse than tipping, but we've already normalized the obnoxious idea that every transaction needs to earn five stars. You know the places. The ones where they warn you "You're going to get a survey, if there is any reason why you don't feel like you can give us a 5 please tell me" (unsaid: Please sir -- they flog us for 4 star ratings). I can't imagine anyone I know not rating an Uber 5 stars, unless they were say, called a slur or the driver caused an accident.
So, I'm not sure how to best construct a system not open to "guilt gaming" in this way, but I would like to see one.
I do, it creates perverse incentives and dehumanizes people.
Imagine yourself catering someone and then having them talk about how great that is and wanting to pay you for that. Not in abstract but actually, in practice. It nails down the servant role, frankly. It feels abhorrent to me, even if you get numb to it over time.
From my perspective, tipping is a socially acceptable way to establish classes. Which itself is a terrible practice and the people catering you aren't your servants.
I used "catering" in this comment as a placeholder for any job that receives tips.
It really depends on the amount. In Belgium for instance there would be no tipping, but rounding up or adding one or two spare coins of change you still have on you in case the service was excellent.
It is like any job where people get a bonus because they have gone above and beyond.
What's worse, it adds "emotional labor" (if I may borrow that term) to a staffer's job; while it's expected for staff to be representative of their company, it really feels like staff in tipping establishments have to put on a show and fake persona to optimize the tipping. But likewise, if you don't tip or don't do enough you (as a customer) are treated like shit.
I'm too autistic to be playing these games and figuring this shit out. I'm glad I don't live in the US.
I spent half my adult life in Ireland, had kids there, built a house there, etc and like to think that during said time I learned a few things and noticed changes. I do think part of it related to POS systems normalizing it. But it is certainly possible that our experiences differed. It was more common in Dublin 2 than in Offaly I'd say...
Honestly something that was a bit galling was that the Irish would moan about Ireland morning day and night but the instant a foreigner made _any_ observation that wasn't rainbows and sunshine we were out of our lane and needed to shut up. And I spent much more of my time extolling Ireland's virtues than complaining about it! It was surreal to be chatting with taxi drivers and trying to make the point that Ireland wasn't an utter kip.
> Honestly something that was a bit galling was that the Irish would moan about Ireland morning day and night but the instant a foreigner made _any_ observation that wasn't rainbows and sunshine we were out of our lane and needed to shut up.
In Spain we tend to have a similar attitude. Not really telling people to shut up, but if foreigners criticize our country we tend to get defensive, even if they are saying things we would agree with or say in a conversation between locals.
For me it's like common sense, just like you don't acknowledge family problems when you talk to people outside close family and friends, but it's probably just the culture I've been raised in.
Yeah, but when immigrants to my home country complained we generally agreed. I mean, why wouldn’t people experiencing the same system have similar complaints?
Oh, OK. I was thinking about foreigners that are here just for a visit. Immigrants get treated like one of us in this respect. In fact immigrants soon experience the horrors of our bureaucracy when they need to obtain their papers, and this typically creates opportunities to bond with the locals by venting about it :)
> Honestly something that was a bit galling was that the Irish would moan about Ireland morning day and night but the instant a foreigner made _any_ observation that wasn't rainbows and sunshine we were out of our lane and needed to shut up
Haha nail on head here. On behalf of my fellow Irish people - sorry!
America has spent the last century proclaiming itself the greatest country on earth, whilst simultaneously causing untold political and social problems in "lesser countries" to its own benefit.
Some deep rooted resentment when an American criticises a place is natural.
> Honestly something that was a bit galling was that the Irish would moan about Ireland morning day and night but the instant a foreigner made _any_ observation that wasn't rainbows and sunshine we were out of our lane and needed to shut up.
Not to be rude, but have you considered this may have been an issue with you and your attitude, rather than everyone you met, if even people who you seemed to think liked you couldn't stand you.
No, not really. My experience there was generally positive and I met lots of great people. That being said it’s fair to observe that different cultures have different traits. I have a friend here in the Netherlands from Roscommon and he gives out about Ireland -much- more than me, and when I mentioned we’d lived in Offaly he described it as “the beating heart of Irish begrudgery”, which checks out.
Anyway this conversation is a net negative to my day and I’m bowing out.
"Not to be rude" my hole. What @CalRobert said is 100% accurate - only we are allowed to criticise Ireland, and criticism is especially unwelcome from Brits and Yanks
I disagree. Irish are _much more_ receptive to criticism of the country from immigrants than most countries.
In my experience, the United States and England (not the entire UK) have the thinnest skin and some people will straight-up tell you to f-off home on the slightest criticism, especially on the subject of human rights or the expeditionary wars.
There are of course the usual suspects, the racists and "Pro-Irish" crowd, who will blame everything on immigrants and accept no criticism of their imagined Ireland, but this isn't true in general.
However, if you make grand pronouncements from a position of profound ignorance and overtly judge the life choices of your new compatriots - a speciality of the GP - you will find yourself alienated at best. This is true everywhere, not just Ireland.
> I disagree. Irish are _much more_ receptive to criticism of the country from immigrants than most countries.
Unless, of course, the criticism is someone making a personal observation about how they saw tipping culture expand during their time in Ireland, right? Then the appropriate response is to generalize that Americans love making ignorant comments about other cultures.
> Unless, of course, the criticism is someone making a personal observation about how they saw tipping culture expand during their time in Ireland, right? Then the appropriate response is to generalize that Americans love making ignorant comments about other cultures.
Unless they're factually incorrect, which is the case here.
Well, they say they did experience it. You cannot possibly know otherwise.
There’s also another commenter in this thread who says they’ve lived in Ireland for their entire life and says they’ve experienced the same thing.
Then, there’s you.
There are two likely explanations I can think of for your behavior here. 1, you are arguing in bad faith. 2, you are unable, for whatever reason, to understand that others might have a different experience in the world than you.
In either case, I don’t see any point in continuing this conversation. Have a nice day.
Nah, born and lived here my whole life and requests for tips are way up, from just eat to payment terminals asking for 10% for things that maybe would have been untipped in the past.
I don't mind tipping for exceptional service, I do however have a major issue with the obligation of tipping. It really should not be on the customers to pay the employees salaries directly.
I don't think we should be tipping at all, even for exceptional service. The job is the job, and the employer should be paying the full amount that job is worth. If the employee is doing it exceptionally well, going above and beyond, the employer should reward them with a raise, same as for salaried positions.
That's assuming the employer values that above-and-beyond-ness, of course. If not, they won't give that raise, and employees will eventually settle on a level of service that the employer is paying for. If that's good enough for the customers, that's fine. If not, that's an opportunity for a competitor to pay employees more so they'll serve customers better.
Customers should not be put in the awkward position of feeling like they should be augmenting people's wages, even if it's on top of an already-sufficient living wage. Wages paid is a negotiation between employer and employee. Customers should not be involved, beyond paying the listed or contracted/agreed-upon price.
I live in a country with near zero tipping culture.
For the most part I find the food gets to my table at some point but I'm rarely particularly happy with customer service. It's sometimes an awkward negotiation to get their attention or to ask something. The opposite was true in my time living in the US - soft skills, fast response, engagement are standard. And I've been on both sides of that in food service.
Now, the logic of what youre talking about makes perfect sense and I agree with that in principle. And yet there is something about dining that is somehow different. Escapes that definition.
There are also times I find that exchanging money is more honest. I want you to serve me, I'm paying you, I don't have to keep at the back of my mind a question whether I'm asking something beyond what your boss expects/pays you. I like that about the US - it's brutal but that's reality.
Don't get me wrong, I live in EU for a reason, but some things here are made unnecessarily complicated and oblique too.
I haven't spent almost any time in Europe, but in the US at some point it seems to have gone from a setup to incentivize that "soft skills, fast response, engagement" to one that I don't feel does that much due to the social obligation. When your worst case scenario is 18% and your best case is likely 20% + rounded up, who bothers to change their behavior? In my experience it's more like a commission than a tip, and that's because the only real impact is it encourages the waiters to remember to promote expensive alcoholic drinks before and during the meal, since you can earn way more money getting 18% from a table who orders 2 drinks than you do by earning 21% from a table drinking water. As a commission, it should be paid by the employer.
I call tipping the "A*hole discount" because only someone who is comfortable being seen as one would consider tipping 0% or even 10%. And servers will tell you that if you receive terrible, horrible, very bad service you should never tip zero, you should speak to the manager instead (since yadda yadda, the tips are for everyone, you don't know whose fault it is, etc). So instead of tips being a way to reward good service, it's actually just a discount reserved for people who are so uncouth that (A) they don't care if everyone at their table thinks they're an ass, and (B) they don't mind taking food off the table of low-wage workers (very low in states that have the horrible policy of a lower "tipped" min wage). Do those people really deserve a discount?
> There are also times I find that exchanging money is more honest. I want you to serve me, I'm paying you, I don't have to keep at the back of my mind a question whether I'm asking something beyond what your boss expects/pays you. I like that about the US - it's brutal but that's reality.
But isn't this describing tipping? You're having to ask yourself, "Is this service good enough for a tip? How much of a tip?" instead of just exchanging money for the service and that's it.
It is and that's why my point is that there is nuance here.
I had more fun and more satisfaction working in food service in the US than in the EU. There was also more real opportunity right there on the spot to do the thing and get more.
Like yeah, you're having to ask yourself and that's friction. But shouldn't there be a friction when you're being served by someone who is an equal? I've seen folks treat service like garbage in the EU because that exchange obscures the fact that there is an exchange of money. And I've seen service fall back on apathy.
But this is just one way to look at it - ideally it should be exactly as you describe - good service, simple exchange at specified price and confidence that the service is adequately paid for the job.
Only issue is that even in the EU this is often not the truth and restaurants would never ever afford to actually hire full-time employment contracts.
> Like yeah, you're having to ask yourself and that's friction. But shouldn't there be a friction when you're being served by someone who is an equal? I've seen folks treat service like garbage in the EU because that exchange obscures the fact that there is an exchange of money. And I've seen service fall back on apathy.
Interestingly, I arrive at an entirely separate conclusion - there is no way for equality in a relationship in which one party holds your financial security (for lack of better words) in their hands. How can the waiter be your equal in that situation, when they might have to act just to ensure they can make the money they need?
Yes, I have also been thinking how a similar reward system would work without tipping. Just use a bonus system based on customer feedback. And the flow could be very similar to how it is with tipping.
It's not worse than tipping, but we've already normalized the obnoxious idea that every transaction needs to earn five stars. You know the places. The ones where they warn you "You're going to get a survey, if there is any reason why you don't feel like you can give us a 5 please tell me" (unsaid: Please sir -- they flog us for 4 star ratings). I can't imagine anyone I know not rating an Uber 5 stars, unless they were say, called a slur or the driver caused an accident.
So, I'm not sure how to best construct a system not open to "guilt gaming" in this way, but I would like to see one.
I do, it creates perverse incentives and dehumanizes people.
Imagine yourself catering someone and then having them talk about how great that is and wanting to pay you for that. Not in abstract but actually, in practice. It nails down the servant role, frankly. It feels abhorrent to me, even if you get numb to it over time.
From my perspective, tipping is a socially acceptable way to establish classes. Which itself is a terrible practice and the people catering you aren't your servants.
I used "catering" in this comment as a placeholder for any job that receives tips.
It really depends on the amount. In Belgium for instance there would be no tipping, but rounding up or adding one or two spare coins of change you still have on you in case the service was excellent.
It is like any job where people get a bonus because they have gone above and beyond.
Why can't the employer give that bonus? In non-service jobs employees don't get tips for going above and beyond; they get raises or bonuses.
Is this changing as cash gets less common?
Giving extra money is literally tipping?
What's worse, it adds "emotional labor" (if I may borrow that term) to a staffer's job; while it's expected for staff to be representative of their company, it really feels like staff in tipping establishments have to put on a show and fake persona to optimize the tipping. But likewise, if you don't tip or don't do enough you (as a customer) are treated like shit.
I'm too autistic to be playing these games and figuring this shit out. I'm glad I don't live in the US.
> It really should not be on random strangers to determine the employees salaries directly
FTFY
(I mean, actually I agree with your point too; but personally I think tipping is much more unfair to the employees than to the customers.)
[flagged]
I spent half my adult life in Ireland, had kids there, built a house there, etc and like to think that during said time I learned a few things and noticed changes. I do think part of it related to POS systems normalizing it. But it is certainly possible that our experiences differed. It was more common in Dublin 2 than in Offaly I'd say...
Honestly something that was a bit galling was that the Irish would moan about Ireland morning day and night but the instant a foreigner made _any_ observation that wasn't rainbows and sunshine we were out of our lane and needed to shut up. And I spent much more of my time extolling Ireland's virtues than complaining about it! It was surreal to be chatting with taxi drivers and trying to make the point that Ireland wasn't an utter kip.
Very off-topic: but the RSS icon on your website still(?) points to feedly and doesn't give your latest blogpost but some feedly crap.
Thanks, I should take it down, really…
> Honestly something that was a bit galling was that the Irish would moan about Ireland morning day and night but the instant a foreigner made _any_ observation that wasn't rainbows and sunshine we were out of our lane and needed to shut up.
In Spain we tend to have a similar attitude. Not really telling people to shut up, but if foreigners criticize our country we tend to get defensive, even if they are saying things we would agree with or say in a conversation between locals.
For me it's like common sense, just like you don't acknowledge family problems when you talk to people outside close family and friends, but it's probably just the culture I've been raised in.
Yeah, but when immigrants to my home country complained we generally agreed. I mean, why wouldn’t people experiencing the same system have similar complaints?
Oh, OK. I was thinking about foreigners that are here just for a visit. Immigrants get treated like one of us in this respect. In fact immigrants soon experience the horrors of our bureaucracy when they need to obtain their papers, and this typically creates opportunities to bond with the locals by venting about it :)
> Honestly something that was a bit galling was that the Irish would moan about Ireland morning day and night but the instant a foreigner made _any_ observation that wasn't rainbows and sunshine we were out of our lane and needed to shut up
Haha nail on head here. On behalf of my fellow Irish people - sorry!
America has spent the last century proclaiming itself the greatest country on earth, whilst simultaneously causing untold political and social problems in "lesser countries" to its own benefit.
Some deep rooted resentment when an American criticises a place is natural.
Fair! I left America in part due to disgust with the place so I likely share many sentiments.
> Honestly something that was a bit galling was that the Irish would moan about Ireland morning day and night but the instant a foreigner made _any_ observation that wasn't rainbows and sunshine we were out of our lane and needed to shut up.
Not to be rude, but have you considered this may have been an issue with you and your attitude, rather than everyone you met, if even people who you seemed to think liked you couldn't stand you.
No, not really. My experience there was generally positive and I met lots of great people. That being said it’s fair to observe that different cultures have different traits. I have a friend here in the Netherlands from Roscommon and he gives out about Ireland -much- more than me, and when I mentioned we’d lived in Offaly he described it as “the beating heart of Irish begrudgery”, which checks out.
Anyway this conversation is a net negative to my day and I’m bowing out.
"Not to be rude" my hole. What @CalRobert said is 100% accurate - only we are allowed to criticise Ireland, and criticism is especially unwelcome from Brits and Yanks
I disagree. Irish are _much more_ receptive to criticism of the country from immigrants than most countries.
In my experience, the United States and England (not the entire UK) have the thinnest skin and some people will straight-up tell you to f-off home on the slightest criticism, especially on the subject of human rights or the expeditionary wars.
There are of course the usual suspects, the racists and "Pro-Irish" crowd, who will blame everything on immigrants and accept no criticism of their imagined Ireland, but this isn't true in general.
However, if you make grand pronouncements from a position of profound ignorance and overtly judge the life choices of your new compatriots - a speciality of the GP - you will find yourself alienated at best. This is true everywhere, not just Ireland.
> I disagree. Irish are _much more_ receptive to criticism of the country from immigrants than most countries.
Unless, of course, the criticism is someone making a personal observation about how they saw tipping culture expand during their time in Ireland, right? Then the appropriate response is to generalize that Americans love making ignorant comments about other cultures.
> Unless, of course, the criticism is someone making a personal observation about how they saw tipping culture expand during their time in Ireland, right? Then the appropriate response is to generalize that Americans love making ignorant comments about other cultures.
Unless they're factually incorrect, which is the case here.
The original poster's subjective, personal experience with tipping culture in Ireland is "factually incorrect"?
Perhaps they just had a different experience than you.
Yes, it's factually incorrect. As in, it's both not true and they didn't experience it.
Well, they say they did experience it. You cannot possibly know otherwise.
There’s also another commenter in this thread who says they’ve lived in Ireland for their entire life and says they’ve experienced the same thing.
Then, there’s you.
There are two likely explanations I can think of for your behavior here. 1, you are arguing in bad faith. 2, you are unable, for whatever reason, to understand that others might have a different experience in the world than you.
In either case, I don’t see any point in continuing this conversation. Have a nice day.
Nah, born and lived here my whole life and requests for tips are way up, from just eat to payment terminals asking for 10% for things that maybe would have been untipped in the past.