Some interesting points: ~40% of tipped workers don't make enough to get taxed anyway, no tax on tips would actually advantage better paid workers like casino dealers who don't need the help. NToT is described as a campaign to distract from minimum wage increase initiatives.
That’s a weird way to say a sizable majority of tipped workers do pay taxes and will benefit from this.
Beware the logical fallacy. "A implies B" does not mean that "not A implies not B".
Workers who earn too little to pay taxes (A) will not benefit from a tax cut (B).
But workers who earn enough (not A) may still not benefit (not B), for example because their employer indirectly pockets the difference. That is actually being argued in the article.
So this is indeed the appropriate way of formulating the statement: at least 40% of workers will demonstrably not benefit from this.
Pretty sure they are aware, they included the qualifier "a sizeable majority" instead of implying it applied to all.
I can't read this article because of the paywall. Are they saying that taxable tips are subject to payroll taxes (which employers pay out of pocket)? That would actually benefit both employers and employees in some sense.
Some tipped workers, like bartenders, can make more in tips than a junior software engineer lol. Less taxes definitely helps their cause.
If you are concerned with indirect effects, there's quite a few pros and cons that you could extrapolate from the no tax on tips policy. These arguments are far less compelling in general.
https://archive.is/20250731232051/https://www.newyorker.com/...
> Some tipped workers, like bartenders, can make more in tips than a junior software engineer lol. Less taxes definitely helps their cause.
neat, but you can only deduct up to $25k and the benefits phase out if you earn more than $150k (single filers).
I think most bartenders would appreciate an extra $25k.
I am sure they would! but that isn't what the law says. Its a $25k DEDUCTION.
If someone earned $125k salary + $25k in tips. Their taxable income would decrease by about $6k (or $500/mo, 4% overall).
Okay. I think they would also like an extra $6k.
Deducting 25k does not mean taking home an extra 25k. It means, probably, somewhere around $1-3k, depending on their tax bracket.
That's...not how it works, like, at all. It's a tax credit, not actual money that you pocket additionally from your existing paycheck. It also only lasts until 2028.
> I can't read this article because of the paywall
I just turned on reader mode in Firefox and then refreshed the page and got the article. I'm surprised how often it works. It often doesn't but sometimes it does.
But it would be true to say not B implies not A right? (contrapositive?)
In that case B would be "is not taxed on the income" and A is "part of the 40%" making the statement not B implies no A: "If you are taxed on your tips that implies you are not part of the 40%".
That seems correct. It's a pretty useless statement, but it is true.
it's indirect tax credits for businesses that don't want to pay workers.
No, it isn't. It doesn't affect the wage they have to pay them. It just affects whether the employees need to pay taxes on tips.
It may not affect the wages they have to pay but may affect wages they pay if they pay above the minimum.
it will absolutely affect the wage they are paid, it will be used as a constant excuse to not pay more than the legal minimum (2.13/hr as long as tips are greater than $7.25/hr)... probably used to justify additional tip stealing that happens pretty much everywhere, people will tip less because of it
servers are treated like absolute garbage
Good servers are treated well and make good money.
This is nonsense for most jobs, and it's nonsense here too. Very rarely are any jobs treated on pure merit of good vs bad performance. Ultimately it ends up being mostly the luck of having reasonable management and good opportunities. Reasonable management is very hard to come by in the restaurant industry.
And either way, if you wanted to believe the merit-based approach, you're talking maybe the top 5% of servers anywhere making "good" money. Wage theft in the industry is colossal.
I will be pleasantly surprised if the removal of tax on tips does absolutely anything to move the needle for the bottom 95% of servers.
The restaurant industry has been lobbying for this to further avoid the pressure of raising wages and the complication of reporting taxes — the reasoning is out there in the open.
This is the sort of modern shell game where corporate interests further obscure costs to trick the lower class into thinking it's a good deal. It's akin to the math on maintenance Uber drivers tend to fail to do when they're calculating their wages... they're absolutely getting hosed and most of them don't even understand how.
You can just look this up, it's not a secret. Median total pay, including tips, in the US is $32k for waiters. In France, it's €22k. The UK is £23k. Even factoring in health insurance costs — ~4.5k/year for an Obamacare plan — waiters make more in America.
Waiters in the US make significantly more than their British and French counterparts, due to tipping: the US minimum wage is lower than the British and French minimum wages, and despite American waiters being paid at an even lower hourly rate than the US minimum wage, they end up making more due to tips, performing the same job.
The upper 25% of waiters in the US make over $40k a year. Your 95% estimate is very off base.
$32k = 27.5k€, and if we include the insurance numbers you provided: $27.5k = 23.5k€
> waiters make more in America
By apparently 1.5k€ per year? Not a strong argument as it stands and we haven't even begun talking about the lifestyle and workplace differences between the two countries.
Waiters in the U.S. make more, due to tips, despite the U.S. having a lower minimum wage. Do you think American waiters want to make $2k/year less? That's nearly 10% of their income.
And that's before even factoring in the tax benefits, which is exactly what this article is about! No tax on tips means nearly all of that income is untaxed. French waiters pay 11% taxes, and British ones are in a 20% tax bracket. The difference widens even further.
Tips allow American waiters to earn more, and no tax on tips makes them take home even more. Hand-wringing about how the American system pays less than the European one is innumerate.
yeah just ignore cost of living differences and rampant wage theft I guess
There is no useful point to saying what you just said.
You can make that argument about literally anything that reduces the tax burden on people who's primary income is useful income.
Correction: primary income is earned income
The tax system is graduated. If 40% don’t make enough to hit a band where income is taxed, then you can assume it’s a gentle ride from paying no taxes to not paying much taxes. And anyways, payroll taxes are by far the higher burden for service workers than income taxes.
Well, to be fair, the IRS considers the average tip to be 8% for taxation purposes.
The whole "I get taxed whether you tip me or not", "I have to pay to serve you if you don't tip"? No, not so much. If you can show (there's even a hugely burdensome IRS form that might take as much as 3-4 minutes a month for cash tips) that you earned less than that 8% average, then that's what you get taxed. But most servers don't want to fill that form out, because they get ... rather more than that, and are being undertaxed already.
Sure, but TFA makes clear that any benefit to workers from tax-free tips is laughable compared to the numbers of times the restaurant lobby has fucked them over, by repeatedly killing attempts to keep wages low. It's not even throwing workers scraps, it's more like throwing them crumbs.
and it’s a not even a forever thing like the rich guys got. this thing sunsets.
They may not pay any income taxes, but they almost certainly pay FICA taxes. If the NToT includes FICA, they would be better off. However, I still think it is terrible idea to advantage some employment classes and means of compensation over others like that.
Yes, creating special exceptions like this is an awful idea.
More carve-outs complicating the tax code and pandering to specific constituents is a bad thing.
It reminds me of listening to a story of how day care business owner-operators are not required by law to contribute to Social Security, don’t, and are then screwed at the end of their life because they don’t have any way to retire.
No tax on tips does not apply to payroll taxes (FICA).
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https://jacobin.com/2025/07/restaurant-industry-tipped-submi...
https://jacobin.com/2020/10/tipped-restaurant-workers-waiter...
https://cepr.net/publications/customer-tips-are-providing-th...
I live in California and this isn't true here. All restaurant workers receive at least minimum wage before tips. In my city, that's $19/hour with health insurance.
Of course, you're still expected to leave a tip and suggested minimum is now 20%, plus even McDonalds is charging $15 for a 4 oz burger, so I rarely go out to eat at places that expect a tip anymore.
I'm not sure why they specifically should be tax exempt though. Cash tips often were, practically speaking, so a lot of tax evasion was happening, but it still seems odd to single them out.
Yeah, there is a lot of shadiness going on these days. I don't think tips should be requested in any sort of transaction where the employee gets paid more than minimum wage. Restaurants always had this weird system where you could avoid paying your employees if they were tipped, so it was drilled into everyone's head "you're stealing from poor innocent workers if you don't tip 20%". But this is not the case for most workers, and so tips should be truly for exceptional service in cases where the job position is on a normal pay scale.
This isn't to say that I don't tip when not required to or that I only tip people I think are being underpaid, but ... things have gotten a little out of control. If I feel like tipping, I'll tip. I do not need a prompt suggesting anything when it's not coming out of the employee's takehome pay.
I hate to say it but I think some government regulation is required here.
Peak tip cynicism is when you're at an upscale restaurant where the wait staff are obviously being paid more than minimum wage, the bill automatically includes a gratuity (often 18% or more), and then on top of that, there's a line to include another tip.
Any fee or surcharge beyond the listed menu prices and associated taxes are a tip as far as I'm concerned.
If the restaurant is going to be shady and unilaterally introduce confusion to an already confusing norm, then I consider that norm voided and fair game for any interpretation.
Another peak of cynicism is that the owners try to argue that the "service charge" is legally not a tip so it doesn't need to be distributed to workers.
It's not a "tip" if it's included. Biggest scam ever.
Upscale restaurants that tip is often being split 5 or 6 ways... not just the primary server, but also the bartender, sommelier, food runners, etc.
Seven states do not have a separate, lower minimum wage for tipped employees. Instead, they require employers to pay tipped employees the full state minimum wage, regardless of tips received. These states are Alaska, California, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington.
Sixteen states use the federal tipped minimum wage of $2.13: Alabama, Georgia, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nebraska, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, and Wyoming.
https://www.epi.org/minimum-wage-tracker/
There's a subtle but important difference in wording. There is no "lower minimum wage" for any employee anywhere. The rule is that employers may credit tips towards pay, up to a certain amount. And they can never credit 100% of pay.
So tipped employees should always earn: minimum_wage + stochastic_number
"lower minimum wage for tipped employees" is incorrect and is just the interpretation of "minimum employer must pay after applying tip credits". Subtle, but very different things! If you aren't earning at least minimum wage (tips inclusive), then your experiencing wage theft.
The DOL page[0] specifically says "Maximum Tip Credit Against Minimum Wage" and that's how the column "Minimum Cash Wage" is calculated, but under no circumstances[1] can the employer pay less than "Minimum Cash Wage". Anything less is illegal. ALSO under no circumstances[1] may an employee earn less than minimum wage.
[0] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped
[1] We're ignoring allowed deductions like lodging and meal
Right, but if a tipped employee in a lower-tipped-minimum state doesn't make the full minimum wage when their tips are included, it's a lot easier in a place like that for a shady employer to fail to top up their wage. Yes, in theory there are ways for employees to get this enforced, but in practice they are very reasonably and understandably wary about making use of those legal avenues.
Not to mention that in a state where there is no lower tipped-wage minimum, all tips go to the employees directly. In a state where the tipped minimum is lower, tips effectively go to the employer for the amount between the tipped minimum and regular minimum, as that's a cost the employer would otherwise have to pay.
I knew someone who worked a graveyard shift at a Waffle House in NC. After their first month, when tips were distributed, they did not make the federal minimum wage, so they had to request additional pay to get to minimum wage (IIRC it was not automatic).
Waffle house then opened an "inquiry" since if they weren't making minimum wage through tips, it must have been because their service was poor (of course it's actually because it was a weekday graveyard shift).
They got their additional $30 or whatever and were then let go.
So while I agree it is illegal to pay less than federal minimum wage, even with tips, but in practice the system is built such that for poor workers in poor areas, they will frequently make less than minimum wage.
Although probably much less nowadays since the $7.25 is still the federal minimum wage and it's pretty hard to find people desperate enough to work for that little money since recent inflation.
This is a lot of words for a distinction without a difference.
What's the minimum quantity of money a server can be paid after a 1 hour shift?
If it's the same in both cases, that's his point.
I understand their point. What's the minimum a business has to pay for a one hour shift?
That's the point that all the parents above them are concerned with. So a semantic argument is needlessly pedantic.
> What's the minimum a business has to pay for a one hour shift?
Minimum wage. You can credit that with tips in some places, but you also have to credit the customer in those cases (not legally, but they aren't coming if you don't), so the net is the same.
To be clear:
We always need to make sure we distinguish a conversation about wage theft and a conversation about tipping. I think they are unknowingly being used interchangeably (or as an assumption in a conversation)[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44751537 (sources linked here)
[1] Federal only lets max credit of 70% of min wage. Some states go up to ~75% of min wage, but their minimum wage is higher than federal.
Servers, often, seem to think it's our (the customer's) obligation to compensate for the sins of their employer.
"Many restaurant owners illegally don't actually follow this law". "Report them to the DOL". "I don't want to do that. You should tip me to make sure I have a livable wage instead."
Perhaps this would happen less often if people didn't just spread hopelessness
Or maybe that's a logical reaction to the situation these people live in.
Sure, it is logical. But that doesn't mean it is a good reaction. Certainly it doesn't help make the problem go away.
Don't confuse "logical" with "correct" or even make the false notion that there is a "correct" reaction. The "right" reaction depends on your goals, short term and long term.
But defeatist attitude results in a tragedy of the commons situation. It's social debt. Think of it like a mess. Messes are easiest to clean up right after they occur. But as time goes on, it becomes harder to clean. If everyone is doing their share of their work messes are very manageable. But if people don't do their share, then it must be picked up by everyone else, right? I think most of us have been in a situation where we've had to clean up "everybody's" mess (if you haven't, you might be that asshole leaving that mess). The defeatist attitude is like that person grumbling "it's too big of a mess, we'll never clean it up." Well... not with that attitude. If the mess needs to be cleaned up, it needs to be cleaned up. Either you help or you make it worse for everyone else.
> even McDonalds is charging $15 for a 4 oz burger
Jeez, where is this? According to the famous McCheapest map the most expensive Big Mac in America is about 8 bucks. Have prices really shot up that much recently?
https://pantryandlarder.com/mccheapest
https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/mcdonalds-san-francisco-61?s...
What got lost in an edit was that's for the combo with a bag ($0.25 extra).
I'm happy that CA doesn't set a lower min wage for tipped workers, but the problem is that in many/most places in CA, $19/hr is still not a living wage, so the tips are more or less required to keep those workers housed and eating.
A living wage in most population centers in CA is nearly $30/hr.
People argued the living wage was $15/hour in California a few years ago. Then it was $20/hour. Now you're saying $30/hour.
I have to ask what is causing what's considered a living wage to increase so rapidly, because it appears to be increasing far faster than the national inflation rate.
It sounds like a wage-price spiral, though I'm not aware of anyone claiming we're in one.
You are seeing an environment that is highly conducive to a wage spiral, but so far wages haven't shown reactive enough to find that a spiral has set in. Comments like the above indicate that it wouldn't take much of a spark to see it ignite, though.
Granted, like a lot of things in economics, you can only tell in hindsight long after it has played out and the data is collected and analyzed, so it is also possible that the spiral is already underway and we just don't know it yet.
It's actually even worse than that. The $19/hr and health insurance comes from increasing menu prices, so with flat percentage tips, you're paying more purely for the privilege of paying more.
California doesn't have a special minimum wage for tipped professions? When I was waiting tables a long time ago I think my pay was $1.95 an hour. It was usually just enough to cover tax on tips (the ones we admitted).
The difference is where the money comes from: directly from employer vs directly from customer. But in all cases *the sum of these sources* must equal the minimum wage.
If the employee is not taking home at least minimum wage, then the employer is guilty of wage theft.
If the employer does not make at least $x towards an employee's wage, the employer is guilty of wage theft.
So instead, read the CA's (and AK, MN, MT, NV, OR, WA) rule as "tips may not be credited towards an employee's salary".
[0] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped
You keep posting this over and over as if states with a lower tipped minimum are equivalent to states with the same minimum, regardless of tips.
You're not wrong that, in states with a lower tipped minimum, the tips act as a credit. But you're ignoring what the power imbalance in those situations can do to an employee, and you're ignoring the fact that in states like that, tips paid by customers are effectively subsidizing the employer out of paying minimum wage.
And I don't think that it would be surprising that wage theft is more common in places where the tipped minimum is set lower than the general minimum.
As a customer, I would much rather know that the employer is paying the full fair minimum wage regardless, and any tip I leave will always be on top of that. I don't want to be paying a part of the employee's wage that the employer would otherwise be paying.
I hear you, but your solution sounds defeatist. Like there's nothing that can be done.
Not effectively, literally. That is what a credit is.But I'm making sure that the conversation is clear that anyone not making minimum wage is suffering from wage theft. We have to identify the right problem if we want to fix it.
I also like this idea. I don't think there should be a wage credit. It is helpful to reducing wage theft. While I would, personally, get rid of credits I don't think I'd get rid of tipping all together. Certainly at least not until there's a better minimum wage rate. You're always doing this. Either your money goes directly to the employee or is going to the employee through the intermediary of the employer. In the case you are not directly paying the employee you're paying the employer.> If the employer does not make at least $x towards an employee's wage, the employer is guilty of wage theft.
See what your server's reaction is if you tell them to report this wage theft.
They won't. They'll just suggest you tip them to compensate.
They should. It's easy to report. Doesn't matter if nothing happens right away, because the more reports that accumulate the higher priority it becomes.
So instead of trying to tell me how fruitless this is and just give up to endless arguments, maybe report wage theft if you know about it. You can do it anonymously. You can do it for people that tell you. It's not a hopeless situation. Hell, lawyers take payment after the case is won, and you know if your wage is being stolen then others are too
It's easy to report, but retaliation is a thing, and is hard -- and expensive -- to prove. Someone subject to wage theft is not the kind of person who can afford that trouble.
And it's not like restaurant owners don't talk among themselves. Getting blackballed isn't great.
Bottom line is that you seem to think that there's zero reason why people are shy about reporting wage theft. And yet so many people don't want to do it. Maybe try a little humility on and accept that maybe there are reasons you don't know about or don't understand. It's very easy to tell people what they should be doing when you don't have to walk in their shoes.
It also is not expensive. At least not more than the theft. Lawyers working on wage theft generally take payment as part of the recovery. You pay out of the winnings, not up front.
Honestly, a big part of the problem is that many people have defeatist attitudes. A lot of people don't even bother to make a report after they leave. It is hard to retaliate when you've left.
[0] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/retaliation
> it's not like restaurant owners don't talk among themselves
I’m sympathetic to the arguments, but this sounds like scaremongering.
If you have evidence of it, please post.
There are so many restaurants everywhere, just leave the worst place off your resume. I can’t see owners coordinating if there’s no online platform for it.
Looks like it changed in 1988 due to a state supreme court ruling about a 1975 law. The law said the tips were the "sole property" of the employee and couldn't be counted by the employer as wages.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-11-01-mn-628-st...
California has not had a tipped minimum wage since at least the early 2000s, and I can’t seem to find any information on what is in the 1900s.
They eliminated the special minimum wage for tipped professions in Seattle too, which is currently $20.76 per hour.
Nope. Tipped workers are paid full minimum wage in California.
>Of course, you're still expected to leave a tip and suggested minimum is now 20%, plus even McDonalds is charging $15 for a 4 oz burger, so I rarely go out to eat at places that expect a tip anymore.
Don't tip, especially 20%, for over the counter service. That is ridiculous.
>I'm not sure why they specifically should be tax exempt though. Cash tips often were, practically speaking, so a lot of tax evasion was happening, but it still seems odd to single them out.
It's just a gimmick to get votes. The theory is that poor people tend to be the ones that work these jobs, they need a break, and it's not a policy that would cost very much anyway. There is a cap on the tips and most cash tips were going unreported anyway.