Zeldman is dead*, and Nielsen is still running NNG. I don't think he's interested in getting into politics. Enough people hate on him, just for being the skunk at the graphic design picnic.
Not that I have anything against pizza menus, though -- they do have their place. But we both agree to hate hamburger menus passionately. ("Hate the menu, not the burger.")
PizzaTool: How I accidentally ordered my first pizza over the internet:
Seriously though, I've always been a huge fan of Jakob Nielsen, especially for his empirical approach, and he has even said some nice things about pie menus.
>Some new stuff was presented such as the pie menus studied by Callahan, Hopkins, Weiser, and Shneiderman from the University of Maryland. When used as pop-up menus, pies have the advantage that any menu item can be selected by equally small movements of the mouse and the study did indeed show that users performed about 15% faster using a pie menu than using a linear menu. Pie menus also have some potential disadvantages, especially when used with many menu items or in cases that call for hierarchical pop-ups.
>In spite of this and some other novelty items, the main feel of CHI'88 was that of improvements of earlier stuff rather than revolutionary new discoveries. Every year, I am able to summarize the main theme of a CHI conference and this year I am not in doubt that the theme was that we are currently slowed down to steady, evolutionary progress in the user interface field.
This is the paper we presented at CHI'88 that he was referring to (which is why I appreciate his empirical approach to actually measuring usability and performance and error rates):
>On October 25, 1988, I gave Steve Jobs a demo of pie menus, NeWS, UniPress Emacs and HyperTIES at the Educom conference in Washington DC. His reaction was to jump up and down, point at the screen, and yell “That sucks! That sucks! Wow, that’s neat! That sucks!”
Don Norman, on the other hand, has never been a big fan of pie menus, and went even further than Jobs just yelling "That sucks!" to explain that was because of all the disasters, pollution, and urban sprawl he thought they could cause, and he even unfairly blamed pie menus for a nuclear meltdown, when a linear menu actually caused it! ;)
Norman: "And then when we saw SimCity, we saw how the pop-up menu that they were doing used pie menus, made it very easy to quickly select the various tools we needed to add to the streets and bulldoze out fires, and change the voting laws, etc. Somehow I thought this was a brilliant solution to the wrong problems. Yes it was much easier to now to plug in little segments of city or put wires in or bulldoze out the fires. But why were fires there in the first place? Along the way, we had a nuclear meltdown. He said "Oops! Nuclear meltdown!" and went merrily on his way."
Hopkins: "Linear menus caused the meltdown. But the round menus put the fires out."
Norman: "What caused the meltdown?"
Hopkins: "It was the linear menus."
Norman: "The linear menus?"
Hopkins: "The traditional pull down menus caused the meltdown."
Norman: "Don't you think a major cause of the meltdown was having a nuclear power plant in the middle of the city?"
(laughter)
Hopkins: "The good thing about the pie menus is that they make it really easy to build a city really fast without thinking about it."
(laughter)
Hopkins: "Don't laugh! I've been living in Northern Virginia!"
Norman: "Ok. Isn't the whole point of SimCity how you think? The whole point of SimCity is that you learn the various complexities of controlling a city."
(My joking but also serious point was that in SimCity "Meltdown" is on the linear "Disaster" menu. So linear menus cause meltdowns. But the pie menus has bulldozers and roads, that you can use to recover from meltdowns with.)
You're choosing to deflect and patronize, but not provide any further credibility to your unwarranted comparison. That speaks for itself.
> Don't you have some NFTs to shill at Denny's Applebee's Max?
You have no idea who I am or what I support, not everyone is a little caricature in your mind. This kind of negative attitude has no place in this forum.
You haven't taken the opportunity to prove you're not full of shit by contributing anything constructive to this conversation. Go reply to my other comments or other people's comments if you disagree with anything I've said or have something to add, but nobody wants to hear financial advice or blockchain evangelism from you, so please stop obsessing about that, because it's not relevant or interesting or credible.
More deflection and moving goalposts, and now ad hominem. Still nothing substantial, and certainly nothing constructive. Just one argumentative fallacy after another.
There is no value in speaking with you any further, your entire demeanor is toxic and ignorant. Take a hike.
You're so close to getting that nobody wants to hear financial advice or blockchain evangelism from you, but you still think the problem is with them, not you. Would you be so persistent and angry about it if your obsession was denying climate change instead of evangelizing fraudulent get-rich-quick pyramid schemes and rug pulls and ponzi schemes and Web 3.0 NFT scams and TRUMP coins, when nobody was remotely interested in discussing it, everyone has heard it all before, and is totally sick of hearing about it, and doesn't want to be your next biggest idiot, and it had absolutely nothing to do with the conversation? Nothing you've said has any relevance to the goalposts of discussing "Gurus of 90s Web Design: Zeldman, Siegel, Nielsen" whatsoever, yet here you are, still throwing a tantrum about nothing interesting.
> Nothing you've said has any relevance to the goalposts of discussing "Gurus of 90s Web Design: Zeldman, Siegel, Nielsen" whatsoever
Projection. You're the one who brought up this irrelevant tangent about blockchain. This flags your entire argument as disingenuous.
Its your comment which got flagged and killed. Think about why that is. You are projecting so much right now, and it just looks sad. There is no need to continue this conversation, goodbye.
I have posted several highly upvoted informative comments relevant to this discussion, while you've posted absolutely nothing useful or relevant whatsoever, your own comment was flagged and killed, and you're projecting your own failure and irrelevance on me right now.
And my guess that the foaming at the mouth climate change denier was also into blockchain was 100% correct.
You already said you weren't going to speak to me again, yet here you are back again for more.
Zeldman is dead*, and Nielsen is still running NNG. I don't think he's interested in getting into politics. Enough people hate on him, just for being the skunk at the graphic design picnic.
*[EDIT] I’m wrong.
Glad to be wrong.
'E's not dead. 'E's pining.
Zeldman is dead?! Did it happen in the last 24hrs? He posted on his site yesterday
https://zeldman.com/
Maybe I’m wrong.
I would have sworn there was a big deal about his passing on this site, not long ago.
Happy to be wrong.
[EDIT] Yup. I’m wrong.
Glad to be.
Also I'm happy to hear he's alive, and to infer that he's not the crazy climate change denying crypto bro!
[dead]
Nielsen hasn't been at NNG for a couple of years and I don't think he was fully engaged in the years before that (Norman isn't there either).
Don't bother with Nielsen today, he's been rambling about how working on accessibility won't matter because AI will create custom UIs for every user.
I hate on Jakob Nielsen for recommending pizza menus over pie menus and hamburger menus! ;)
https://www.nngroup.com/articles/hamburger-menu-vs-pizza/
Not that I have anything against pizza menus, though -- they do have their place. But we both agree to hate hamburger menus passionately. ("Hate the menu, not the burger.")
PizzaTool: How I accidentally ordered my first pizza over the internet:
https://donhopkins.medium.com/the-story-of-sun-microsystems-...
Seriously though, I've always been a huge fan of Jakob Nielsen, especially for his empirical approach, and he has even said some nice things about pie menus.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29930500
https://www.nngroup.com/articles/trip-report-chi-88/
>Some new stuff was presented such as the pie menus studied by Callahan, Hopkins, Weiser, and Shneiderman from the University of Maryland. When used as pop-up menus, pies have the advantage that any menu item can be selected by equally small movements of the mouse and the study did indeed show that users performed about 15% faster using a pie menu than using a linear menu. Pie menus also have some potential disadvantages, especially when used with many menu items or in cases that call for hierarchical pop-ups.
>In spite of this and some other novelty items, the main feel of CHI'88 was that of improvements of earlier stuff rather than revolutionary new discoveries. Every year, I am able to summarize the main theme of a CHI conference and this year I am not in doubt that the theme was that we are currently slowed down to steady, evolutionary progress in the user interface field.
This is the paper we presented at CHI'88 that he was referring to (which is why I appreciate his empirical approach to actually measuring usability and performance and error rates):
An Empirical Comparison of Pie vs. Linear Menus:
https://donhopkins.medium.com/an-empirical-comparison-of-pie...
Pie Menus: A 30 Year Retrospective:
https://donhopkins.medium.com/pie-menus-936fed383ff1
>Steve Jobs Thought Pie Menus Sucked
>On October 25, 1988, I gave Steve Jobs a demo of pie menus, NeWS, UniPress Emacs and HyperTIES at the Educom conference in Washington DC. His reaction was to jump up and down, point at the screen, and yell “That sucks! That sucks! Wow, that’s neat! That sucks!”
Don Norman, on the other hand, has never been a big fan of pie menus, and went even further than Jobs just yelling "That sucks!" to explain that was because of all the disasters, pollution, and urban sprawl he thought they could cause, and he even unfairly blamed pie menus for a nuclear meltdown, when a linear menu actually caused it! ;)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37907449
X11 SimCity Demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvi98wVUmQA
Don Hopkins and Donald Norman at IBM Almaden's "New Paradigms for Using Computers" workshop:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GCPQxJttf0
Norman: "And then when we saw SimCity, we saw how the pop-up menu that they were doing used pie menus, made it very easy to quickly select the various tools we needed to add to the streets and bulldoze out fires, and change the voting laws, etc. Somehow I thought this was a brilliant solution to the wrong problems. Yes it was much easier to now to plug in little segments of city or put wires in or bulldoze out the fires. But why were fires there in the first place? Along the way, we had a nuclear meltdown. He said "Oops! Nuclear meltdown!" and went merrily on his way."
Hopkins: "Linear menus caused the meltdown. But the round menus put the fires out."
Norman: "What caused the meltdown?"
Hopkins: "It was the linear menus."
Norman: "The linear menus?"
Hopkins: "The traditional pull down menus caused the meltdown."
Norman: "Don't you think a major cause of the meltdown was having a nuclear power plant in the middle of the city?"
(laughter)
Hopkins: "The good thing about the pie menus is that they make it really easy to build a city really fast without thinking about it."
(laughter)
Hopkins: "Don't laugh! I've been living in Northern Virginia!"
Norman: "Ok. Isn't the whole point of SimCity how you think? The whole point of SimCity is that you learn the various complexities of controlling a city."
(My joking but also serious point was that in SimCity "Meltdown" is on the linear "Disaster" menu. So linear menus cause meltdowns. But the pie menus has bulldozers and roads, that you can use to recover from meltdowns with.)
[dead]
[flagged]
While we still have it?
[flagged]
> Did I hit a nerve?
You're choosing to deflect and patronize, but not provide any further credibility to your unwarranted comparison. That speaks for itself.
> Don't you have some NFTs to shill at Denny's Applebee's Max?
You have no idea who I am or what I support, not everyone is a little caricature in your mind. This kind of negative attitude has no place in this forum.
You haven't taken the opportunity to prove you're not full of shit by contributing anything constructive to this conversation. Go reply to my other comments or other people's comments if you disagree with anything I've said or have something to add, but nobody wants to hear financial advice or blockchain evangelism from you, so please stop obsessing about that, because it's not relevant or interesting or credible.
More deflection and moving goalposts, and now ad hominem. Still nothing substantial, and certainly nothing constructive. Just one argumentative fallacy after another.
There is no value in speaking with you any further, your entire demeanor is toxic and ignorant. Take a hike.
You're so close to getting that nobody wants to hear financial advice or blockchain evangelism from you, but you still think the problem is with them, not you. Would you be so persistent and angry about it if your obsession was denying climate change instead of evangelizing fraudulent get-rich-quick pyramid schemes and rug pulls and ponzi schemes and Web 3.0 NFT scams and TRUMP coins, when nobody was remotely interested in discussing it, everyone has heard it all before, and is totally sick of hearing about it, and doesn't want to be your next biggest idiot, and it had absolutely nothing to do with the conversation? Nothing you've said has any relevance to the goalposts of discussing "Gurus of 90s Web Design: Zeldman, Siegel, Nielsen" whatsoever, yet here you are, still throwing a tantrum about nothing interesting.
> Nothing you've said has any relevance to the goalposts of discussing "Gurus of 90s Web Design: Zeldman, Siegel, Nielsen" whatsoever
Projection. You're the one who brought up this irrelevant tangent about blockchain. This flags your entire argument as disingenuous.
Its your comment which got flagged and killed. Think about why that is. You are projecting so much right now, and it just looks sad. There is no need to continue this conversation, goodbye.
I have posted several highly upvoted informative comments relevant to this discussion, while you've posted absolutely nothing useful or relevant whatsoever, your own comment was flagged and killed, and you're projecting your own failure and irrelevance on me right now.
And my guess that the foaming at the mouth climate change denier was also into blockchain was 100% correct.
You already said you weren't going to speak to me again, yet here you are back again for more.
Touch some grass, crypto shill.