> symptomatic of some sort of Stockholm syndrome
I have since moved to macbooks for the hardware, but until not too long ago WSL was my linux "distro" of choice because I didn't want to spend time configuring my computer to make basic things work like suspend/wake on lid down/up, battery life, hardware acceleration for video playback on the browser, display scaling on external monitor and so on.
Who deals with this? All this is fine out of the box on a modern Linux distro.
That was certainly not the case ~2 years ago, the last time I installed linux on a laptop.
It also doesn't appear to be the case even now. I searched for laptops available in my country that fit my budget and for each laptop searched "<laptop name> linux reddit" on google and filtered for results <1 year old. Each laptop's reports included some or other bug.
https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1hfqptw/linu...
https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1esntt3/leno...
https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1j3983j/hp_o...
https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1k1nsm8/audi...
The laptop with the best reported linux support seemed to be Thinkpad P14s but even there users reported tweaking some config to get fans to run silently and to make the speakers sound acceptable.
https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/1c81rw4/thinkpad_...
> linux
Which Linux? Each distro is essentially a different operating system.
I thought you said everything should work seamlessly on any modern distro.
Not all distros that exist in the current year are "modern". Mint for example, still ships with X11 and old forks of Gnome. Lots of people are running Arch with weird components that don't work well for whatever reason. And so on...
Modern means systemd, pipewire, Wayland, Gnome, an up to date kernel, etc... So the current Ubuntu and Fedora releases.
I've had 100% working laptops for 15 years now. Because I always run the newest Ubuntu.
I run Ubuntu and suspend is pretty much a nightmare to the point I just gave up pretending it exists. These are Dell computers sold with supposed Ubuntu support. Close the lid and put it in a backpack is inevitably an invitation for a hot laptop or empty battery when you pull it out a few hours later (for the record: Windows isn't any better at this in my experience so WSL never solved that problem either).
Previous laptops (all ThinkPads) used to be able to get everything all to work (debian) but it did take effort and finding the correct resources. Unfortunately all the old documentation about this stuff is pre-systemd and UFI and it's not exactly straightforward anymore.
Google "Dell suspend issues". It's just their computers, it doesn't work any better on Windows. My wife has had 2 Dell laptops now, neither suspended properly ever (and she only runs Windows). According to the internet, this is a Dell problem. One of her laptops also had the Wifi card break within 4 hours of use, brand new. But she likes the "design" and is stubborn.
Google harder. It's a general Windows problem. Microsoft can't even get it to work on their own Surface devices. Show me a Windows laptop that suspends properly and I'll show you a liar.
Well there you go. Meanwhile Linux suspend does work more often than not in my experience. I've had a ThinkPad, Acer and MSI laptop with working suspend on Linux.
Other than an up to date kernel, your list of what "modern" means is entirely wrong. The rest of the entries are polarizing freedesktop-isms. There's nothing out of date about, e.g., KDE Plasma.
Afaict, all the reporters used the newest available Ubuntu/Fedora/Arch.
I read all the links, most of the problems weren't bugs (Fan runs loud? Fans run under Windows as well... Only modern suspend? Literally created for Windows...). From all those links the only thing that was a bug was an issue with a kernel regression and 4/5 distros he listed weren't one I listed.
Maybe I was too positive on Fedora (I was going by it's reputation, I use Ubuntu for work). Ubuntu is solid.
Issues reported:
Link 1: screen only updating every 2 seconds, visual glitches. Link 2: brightness reset to full on screen unlock, fans turning on when charging. Link 3: bluetooth troubles, speakers cant be muted if headphone jack is on mute. Link 4: audio quality and low volume, wifi not coming back after sleeping. Link 5: fans being too loud, poor sound quality.
Either your Stockholm syndrome is affecting your reading comprehension or you just take bugs like these as part of the normal "working perfectly" linux experience.
Aren't these issues almost always kernel-related?
Nothing works out of the box with Linux. They may "seem" to work out of the box but you realize how many little tweaks go into making a laptop/consumer device work fully when you work as an embedded dev. It is quite difficult to get to the same power consumption levels and same exact hardware / software driver capabilities under Linux. There are simply no APIs for many things. So the entire driver has to live in userspace using some ioctls to write random stuff to memory or it cannot exist. There are also algorithms that the hardware manufacturer wants to keep closed.
Note that NVIDIA drivers didn't get better since they are more open source now. They are not. GPUs are now entire independent computers with their own little operating system. Some significant parts of the driver now runs under that computer.
Yes the manufacturers may allocate some people to deal with it and the corrosiveness of the kernel community. But why? Intel and AMD uses that as a marketing and sales stragtegy. If the hardware manufacturer is the best one there is, where is the profit for supporting Linux? Even Thinkpads don't have 100% support of all the little sensors and PMICs.
HiDPI issue hasn't been solved yet completely. Bluetooth is still quite unreliable. MIPI support should be the best due to the number of devices, until you realize everybody did their own shitty external driver and there are no common good drivers for MIPI cameras so your webcam doesn't work. USB stack is still dodgy. Microsoft in 90s had a cart of random hardware populating the USB tree completely and they just fucked with the NT kernel plugging and unplugging until it didn't break anymore for love's sake. Who did that level of testing with Linux?
This is why you buy computers designed for Linux, with Linux preinstalled, and with support that you can call to get help if there is an issue.
Then you cannot claim that Linux works out of the box. It doesn't if you need to select hardware for it. However, I already know that since I actually used Linux for 15 years. Both on the consumer side as a normal user for 15 years and now I am actually an embedded Linux developer. The underlying architecture of GNU/Linux distros is heavily server biased which often is the polar opposite of a consumer system.
Except for Apple (and maybe Framework), all laptops are designed by contract original design manufacturers (ODMs) Taiwan, Korea and China. Your usual Linux laptop OEMs like System76 and Tuxedo just buy better combinations of the whitelabel stuff. They are inferior to actual big OEMs designs which contain more sophisticated sensors and power management and extra UEFI features. This includes business laptops Dell Latitudes, HP Elitebooks and Lenovo Thinkpads. None of those manufacturers actually do Linux-based driver development. All the device development, manufacturing and testing is done under Windows and only for Windows. The laptops are booted with Windows to do functional tests at factory not Linux.
Linux is an afterthought for all OEMs. After Windows parts are released and tested, the kernel changes to Linux is added. They are rudimentary support which doesn't include 100% of the featureset. Many drivers today have quite proprietary user-space side. You'll get none of that from any laptop manufacturer. You may say you don't care about those and you're okay with 10 - 20% power loss. That's not the definition of out-of-the box for me.
> Then you cannot claim that Linux works out of the box. It doesn't if you need to select hardware for it
That is not what that means. At all.
> Your usual Linux laptop OEMs like System76 and Tuxedo just buy better combinations of the whitelabel stuff.
This is not what System76 do, actually.
> Many drivers today have quite proprietary user-space side. You'll get none of that from any laptop manufacturer.
Not with System76
> You may say you don't care about those and you're okay with 10 - 20% power loss.
I'm not. That's why I stopped buying Windows hardware and started buying Linux hardware!
Apple users's whole identity is based on thinking linux users do this daily.
You need new reasons to hate Linux, because all those issues were solved a while ago.
There is a reason why 1) people whose main environment is Linux feel (correctly) that these problems have been solved a long time ago, and 2) people whose main environment is not Linux but who try Linux occasionally feel (correctly) that these problems still occasionally crop up.
People whose main environment is Linux intentionally buy hardware that works flawlessly with Linux.
People who try Linux occasionally do it on whatever hardware they have, which still almost always works with Linux, but there are occasional issues with sketchy Windows-only hardware or insufficiently tested firmware or flaky wifi cards, and that is enough for there to be valid anecdotes in any given comments section with several people saying they tried it and it isn't perfect. Because "perfect" is a very high bar.
>People whose main environment is Linux intentionally buy hardware that works flawlessly with Linux.
Hm, recently I bought a random "gamer PC" for the beefier GPU (mainly to experiment with local LLMs), installed Linux on it, and everything just worked out of the box. I remember having tons of problems back in 2009 when I first tried Ubuntu, though. I have dual boot, just today I ran a few benchmarks with Qwen3. On Windows, token generation is 15% slower. Whenever I have to boot into Windows (mainly to let the kid play Roblox), everything feels about 30% slower and clunkier.
At work, we use Linux too - Dell laptops. The main irritating problem has been that on Linux, Dell's Dock Stations are often buggy with dual monitors (when switching, the screen will just freeze). The rest works flawlessly for me. It wasn't that long ago when my Windows (before I migrated to Linux) had BSODs every other day...
My random "gamer PC" won't even boot into any Linux live CD, so I can't install it at all.
Anecdotes are like that.
> people whose main environment is Linux feel (correctly) that these problems have been solved a long time ago
There is also the quiet part to this. People who religiously use Linux and think that it is the best OS that can ever be, don't realize how many little optimizations go into a consumer OS. They use outdated hardware. They use the lower end models of the peripherals (people still recommend 96 DPI screens just for this). They use limited capabilities of that hardware. They don't rely on deeply interactive user interfaces.
I own a 2011 thinkpad, a 2014 i7 desktop and a "brand new" 2024 zen5 desktop. They all work wonderfully and all functionality I paid for is working. I haven't had a single problem with the newest machine since I bought it other than doing the rigmarole to get accelerated video encoder/decoder to work on Fedora. Sucks but I can't complain.
The older machines I've owned since around 2014 and I remember the hardware support was fairly competent but far from perfect and graphics and multimidia performance was mediocre at best and ZERO support for accelerated video encode/decoder. Fast forward to around the last year or two and linux on both of these machines is screaming fast (within those machines capabilities...), graphics and multimidia is as good as you could get on windows (thanks wayland and pipewire!) and acc. video decode/encode works great (still have to do the rigmarole in fedora, but it's ootb in manjaro).
Both the 2014 machine and the 2025 sport a 4k display @120hz (no frame drops!) with no issues using 200% scaling for hi-dpi usage. Pretty much all of the apps are hi-dpi aware, with the exception of a few running on WINE which until a few months wasn't HI-DPI aware. (this feature is experimental and among many other improvements in WINE may take another year to mature and be 100% stable)
200% is just rendering the same pixels and them drawing them 4 times and driving a single monitor at the single resolution is easy stuff. Would your HiDPI system with one monitor at 125%, one at 100% and another at 150% scaling? This is when the font rendering gets fucked up and your Hi-DPI native toolkits start blurring icons. That's my setup. Windows is perfectly capable to make this work. GTK wasn't able to do fractional scaling until recently and Qt has 100s of papercuts.
I got a Thinkpad to just run this setup under Linux 2020. AMD didn't solve the problem in their driver until 2022 when I was able to drive all of them at 60 Hz.
No, 200% is rendering 4 pixels with "features" 2x larger in each axis. You may get 200% scaling as you said with some legacy apps that give zero fucks about dpi scaling but are still scaled trough some mechanism to properly match other apps.
Fractional scaling has been a problem across all platforms, but I agree Linux has taken its time to get it right and still have some gotchas. You should try to avoid it in any platform honestly, you can get sometimes get blurry apps even in Windows. AFAIK KDE is the first to get it right in this complex situations where you mix multiple monitors with different fractional scaling ratios and have legacy apps to boot. GNOME has had experimental fractional scaling for a while but it's still hidden behind a flag.
It also helps to not have nVidia trash on your old (and sometimes even new) computers if you want longevity. My old machines have intel and AMD graphics with full support from current kernel and mesa.
Linux is basically everyone's go to for older devices. Windows 10 will run like shit on a 10 year old laptop with 4GB RAM but latest Ubuntu is nice and snappy.
I have a 13 year old laptop that runs Windows 10. I cannot run Linux because neither nouveau nor Nvidia drivers support its GPU. It has 8 GiBs of RAM and it works perfectly for light browsing and document editing.
What GPU?
I don't need new reasons to hate Linux. Like I said, I have moved to macbooks as my personal computing device because of the better hardware.
> solved a while ago
Can not be the case because I was facing these issues less than a couple of years ago.
I was responding to the "Stockholm syndrome" comment specifically because there are a number of hardware and software problems (e.g. https://jayfax.neocities.org/mediocrity/gnome-has-no-thumbna...) with using linux as a desktop operating system that linux users have to find their way around, so I found the comment rather full of irony.
PS: I already know that the file-picker issue has been fixed. That does not take away from the fact that it was in fact broken for decades. It is only meant as an example.
> Can not be the case because I was facing these issues less than a couple of years ago
Just like with Mac and Windows, you choose the supported hardware, and everything is flawless.
If there's some set of fully Linux-capable laptops out there, it's a small subset of the Windows-capable ones.
And it's not clear what the Linux ones are. Like, our dept ordered officially Linux-supported Thinkpads for whoever wanted them, and turns out they still have unsolved Bluetooth audio problems. Those people use wired headphones now.
This is true. Until people pay reliably for Linux hardware instead of Windows, that will always be the case, just as it is for Mac.
Just like Mac, though, the key is to buy from a vendor that ships hardware designed for Linux, with Linux preinstalled, and with support for Linux.
Unlike, Mac, though, Linux won't block you from installing it on Windows hardware, so it's not as obvious that you're on your own.
And what is supported hardware here? What even is "support"?
I'm writing this from Purism Librem 14, which works flawlessly, including suspend. There's also System76, Framework and more. See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32964519.
As far as I can tell, Chromebooks are the only truly supported GNU/Linux laptops.
System76 is my go-to. There are others. You can even get some major vendors (Dell, Lenovo) to ship with Linux preinstalled, though I don't know if the firmware or chips diverge from the Windows variants.
Basically any thinkpad
There's no way, especially if you include Bluetooth in that list.