They've already sent an innocent man there and acknowledged he was innocent, then refused to bring him back when the courts, the opposition and finally SCOTUS each commanded them to bring him back.
This was just a test, and it was successful. They can now disappear and deport anyone they want with no repercussions whatsoever. The GOP is a criminal organization and their followers share the responsibility of what happens next.
It was extra ridiculous/insulting/terrifying to see the heads of both countries in the same room saying that there was nothing they could do about the situation.
SCOTUS granting the president far reaching immunity was an invitation for the president to be in contempt of SCOTUS whenever it pleases him, and to just piss on the constitution he took an oath on defending.
The fact that no charges have ever been brought against him by the Salvadoran government, yet they still claim to be holding him there lends credence to this. Why would they not simply release him? If he's dead it would be a major problem for Bukele's government as well as the US government. So evidently we're in "disappeared" territory now.
It's too soon to say it's "successful": SCOTUS was 9-0 against and that was still only a few days ago, so far from being a success it's now turning into a constitutional crisis... assuming the administration doesn't fold, or flip-flop, or some combination of the two - which we've already seen plenty of[1].
----------
[1] the seemingly arbitrary and capricious tariff changes announced almost every day ever since the-day-after-April-fools-day.
Note that I said "even" and "less than ten". Even ignoring damage he's already suffered in the prison, the "good outcomes" are still only 30% (10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20).
If you read the SCOTUS ruling, all it upholds from the lower courts decision is that the USG must 'facilitate', not 'effectuate' his release. AFAIK the Court doesn't have a way to order El Salvador to do so
Not “always”. It wasn’t the reason that became an amendment, national defense was. People later emphasized that rather off-label justification when state militias were nationalized and the main purpose of the amendment became wholly obsolete.
It, indirectly, was, because it was the reason the country initially relied on decentralized citizen militias for defense in the first place. Many of the founders were worried that a standing federal army would be a tool of oppression, and wanted to keep most of the firepower distributed amongst the populace.
The system more or less worked until the Spanish American War, when the government realized that the militias need some sort of standard in order to integrate properly with the regular army when called up. This led to the creation of the National Guard in 1903. It was tightly integrated into the Army structure in 1933.
What arguably made the Amendment obsolete was the advance of technology. By the early 20th century conventional warfighting took too much firepower, support, and coordination for a loose citizen militia to conduct. At best they could form the core of an insurgent force, but the goal is always to not get to that point.
In theory, that insurgent force could work against a tyrannical federal government. In practice, even if most of the people with the civilian firepower weren't supporting the tyranny I'm not sure it would work out. Conducting an insurgency against a foreign occupier is a lot different than conducting one against a domestic oppressor.
> In theory, that insurgent force could work against a tyrannical federal government. In practice, even if most of the people with the civilian firepower weren't supporting the tyranny I'm not sure it would work out. Conducting an insurgency against a foreign occupier is a lot different than conducting one against a domestic oppressor.
Yeah, precisely my personal take against the current "from utility" argument in the amendment's favor: it's very much not clear that they're especially useful for resisting oppressive governments, for one thing because those are often quite popular at first, and for another, because successful examples of that tend to involve a ton of foreign aid, making the role of private arms rather minor. Meanwhile, examples involving foreign invaders are extremely different (and also often involve lots of foreign aid).
Like, maybe the right deserves to stand anyway for other reasons (maybe it just ought to! Maybe it doesn't need a reason!) but I think that particular argument for it is really misguided, especially if one takes it seriously when forming one's opinions about the broader political landscape. IMO there is no meaningful safeguard against tyranny to be found in that amendment.
America's gun culture is very closely tied to its settler culture. Most right wing gun nuts are barely able to conceal their fears/hopes for a race war in all but name.
That said, there are plenty of examples of progressive forces arming themselves. The Black Panthers are a good example. Without their armed militancy I think the US government would have been a lot less likely to capitulate to the demands of the peaceful civil rights activists.
This is nonsense. Plenty of nonviolent, peaceful groups carry arms.
Leftists (e.g. Anarchists, Marxists, Socialists, Communists, Queer Liberation, Black Liberation, etc.) groups typically are pro-firearms. Not always, but plenty are. The Black Panthers, famously, were armed, but so are are orgs like the Pink Pistols. Martin Luther King Jr. had many guns for self defense, and carried a revolver at times. Marx famously said that workers should be armed.
Centrists (e.g. Democrats, some Labour parties) typically abhor guns, and value the decorum and principle of the instution to keep us all safe. They are a "if society is well ordered, then there's no need for arms" group.
Right wing folks (e.g. Republicans, Proud Boys, KKK, etc.) are the folks who you are describing -- by and large supporting these measures and also want to use firearms to exert control.
It's really, really important if you consider yourself to be a progressive to ask, "Who will gun control laws in America be used to prosecute? Will that be minority groups dispraportionately?"
Historically and presently, armed minorities are more difficult to oppress, and many many leftist groups have historically and presently been armed for the purposes of community defense. By suggesting that arming oneself is a right wing position you erase history and erode current efforts for folks to build community safety systems.
All* the people lamenting the current administration are scared of or want to ban firearms... whoops!
Now, imagine if those people had gotten their way, and how much easier it would be for the administration to do some of the things people claim it wants to do (e.g. gulags).
>Now, imagine if those people had gotten their way, and how much easier it would be for the administration to do some of the things people claim it wants to do (e.g. gulags).
Given that none of the people with firearms have done a damn thing to stop this and how many of them even voted for Trump and support his policies, because American gun and militia culture has been infested with Nazis since forever, I don't see how it could possibly have been any easier. There has been and continues to be no resistance to Trump of any significance. When he does open up the gulags for real, it's going to be America's armed patriot militias who round people up for the regime.
Funny, because the administration testified in court that it was a mistake that he was sent. Claiming the stay was illegal was retconned after the fact, not the cause for the deportation.
The claim that administration supporters are now using is that the legal 'administrative stay' placed upon him was illegal, That is what 'stay' means in the context of what I said, not his 'stay in the country'. Maybe don't get so righteous next time especially when you don't bother to understand what someone says.
I'm assuming the response to this is going to be along the lines of 'oh this doesnt prove he was innocent, they say he was a member of ms-13 etc etc etc' because evidently innocent until proven guilty (which they provided no proof of) isn't a thing anymore
"The US government has conceded Mr Ábrego García was deported because of an "administrative error", though it also says he is a member of the MS-13 gang - something his lawyer denies. "
Try actually reading the article next time. Again, the burden of proof here should be falling on PROVING he is a member of ms-13, not proving he isn't. You are obviously arguing this in bad faith.
> Although the asylum claim proved to be time-barred—aliens are required to bring such claims within a year of entering the country—in October 2019 Judge Jones did grant his request for “withholding of removal” based on his “well-founded” fear of persecution by Barrio 18. The government did not appeal, so Jones’s ruling is now final.
> The removal being in error does not make him innocent.
Innocent is the default. That's a fundamental part of how our legal system works. The government must prove you guilty.
He's an illegal who had a credible (like actually credible, like you could pitch it to someone in the year 2002, not the flimsy 2020s BS) claim for asylum but didn't file in time. He was eventually caught up in the system for reasons not related to the commission of any crime. ICE looked at his case, and gave him a "we won't deport you because your case is pending" status.
"Withholding of removal" is a form of legal status.
They can deport you (if they find a willing third party nation), as it's not a path to permanent resident status, but until they do so, you're allowed to reside and work.
> As in the case of asylum, a person who is granted withholding of removal is protected from being returned to
his or her home country and receives the right to remain in the United States and work legally. But at the end
of the court process, an immigration judge enters a deportation order and then tells the government they
cannot execute that order. That is, the “removal” to a person’s home country is “withheld.” However, the
government is still allowed to deport that person to a different country if the other country agrees to accept
them.
> Withholding of removal provides a form of protection that is less certain than asylum, leaving its recipients in a
sort of limbo. A person who is granted withholding of removal may never leave the United States without
executing that removal order, cannot petition to bring family members to the United States, and does not gain
a path to citizenship. And unlike asylum, when a family seeks withholding of removal together a judge may
grant protection to the parent while denying it to the children, leading to family separation.
So this is a bit weird. The initial claim seems not well defined, because "legal" / "illegal" person is not really a thing without more context, so you can interpret it in many ways. The main takeaway though is "after the hearing, he's not breaking any rules by staying and working in the country". That's legal enough for me for a casual comment - I'll stay with my original then - he entered illegally and afterwards was allowed to legally remain.
Have you got the actual court decision about the crime? Not police accusations or similar - confirmation he was actually judged and found guilty in court?
False on both counts and contradictory to the source you cite. There is no right to reside, and you could only work if you were additionally authorised.
> "Withholding of removal" is a form of legal status.
In the same sense as trespassing is a legal status. The way in which it is not a legal status is that he does not have the status of legally residing in the US.
> As in the case of asylum, a person who is granted withholding of removal is protected from being returned to his or her home country and receives the right to remain in the United States and work legally.
I’ve seen you claim 1+1=3 all over this thread, so the gaslighting isn’t gonna work.
> In the same sense as trespassing is a legal status.
No. In the same sense that you’re allowed to stay in a homeless shelter legally for a while, but not necessarily forever.
MY CLIENT HAS BEEN GRANTED WITHHOLDING OF REMOVAL… NOW WHAT?
Your client may apply for an Employment Authorization Document by using the form I765 available on the USCIS website (www.uscis.gov). Her Employment Authorization
Document will then be sent to her most recent address on file with USCIS. It is
therefore important to make sure that not only the court but also USCIS is informed of
any changes in her address through use of the form AR-11 (also available on the USCIS
website). The EAD is only issued for one year at a time and should be renewed with
ample time (at least three months) to allow for processing.
> they must have a valid CIS-issued employment authorization document in order to work lawfully in the United States.
---
Not one single claim I made is false, while this whole thread is in response to a blatantly false claim, that an innocent man was deported. You should check the mirror.
It's been pointed out, over and over again, that our system presumes innocence until convicted in a court of law. You know this. Don't pretend otherwise.
Until the government finds a different country to send him to, he's here legally. He's not breaking any law by remaining while awaiting that. Your source backs me up, in its first paragraph - "he can now safely remain in
this country".
> The United States acknowledges that Abrego Garcia was subject to a withholding
order forbidding his removal to El Salvador, and that the
removal to El Salvador was therefore illegal.
> The Respondent was arrested in the company of other
>
> ranking gang members and was confirmed to be a ranking member of the MS-13 gang by a
>
> proven and reliable source.
He had his day in court, twice, he was not innocent. I never contended that the government did not wrongfully deport him, not once, but that does not make him innocent. He is still an MS-13 member that is illegally in the US and subject to deportation at the pleasure of the executive.
You're also citing the government's assertions. If assertions were enough to deem someone a convicted criminal, we wouldn't need trials. It has never been proven, "beyond a reasonable doubt", that he was a member of MS-13.
> The Maryland police officer who formally attested to Abrego Garcia’s supposed gang affiliation in 2019—when he was detained the first time—was subsequently suspended from the force for a serious transgression: giving confidential information about a case to a sex worker, The New Republic has established.
Your two citations also preceed his being granted withholding of removal. At the time of his deportation, he had legal status here, until they found a valid place to send him. The deportation - again, per SCOTUS - was the illegal bit.
> But in Abrego Garcia’s case, to revoke his protections, the U.S. government “would have been required under law to reopen his immigration court proceedings and prove to the judge that he was a member of MS-13 and therefore no longer eligible for withholding.”
> The deportation - again, per SCOTUS - was the illegal bit.
Never disputed this. Why do you keep returning to this when it is not in question? Do you not get how the US could deport someone and the person still not be innocent, being an MS-13 gang member and an illegal alien?
> Why do you keep returning to this when it is not in question?
Because you keep falsely claiming the guy is a criminal. He has not been convicted of any crime; his membership in MS-13 is an allegation only. (And a shaky one.) Until convicted of a crime, our system presumes him to be innocent.
The only demonstrably, provably, without-a-doubt illegal act here was the deportation.
We deport and refuse entry to non-criminals (including for plenty of non-criminal acts, or even just vibes) all the time. It doesn't prove guilt.
> The only demonstrably, provably, without-a-doubt illegal act here was the deportation.
This is false. You and I know that it is provably, without-a-doubt, that he entered the US illegally and was remaining in the US illegally. There is nobody disputing this.
> You and I know that it is provably, without-a-doubt, that he entered the US illegally and was remaining in the US illegally.
No one has charged him, let alone convicted him, of a crime for entering the country as a minor. He has no criminal record. That's a fact.
You and I know he received withholding of removal (and a work permit!). His remaining here at that point was legal, albeit potentially temporary.
The Supreme Court of the United States has ruled the deportation an illegal act. No portion of the judicial branch has yet weighed in on Garcia's actions.
I don't disagree, but I bet ICE doesn't see it that way. I mean why else would someone who's been granted a legal status pending his case wind up on their list of people to roll up on.
If you google "innocent man sent to el salvador" you'll get dozens on dozens on dozens of results from which you can pick your favorite news site to catch up.
I checked the first two results and not one of them said the man was innocent [1][2]. It's okay if the claim is baseless and there is no citation, but asking me to find a citation for someone else's baseless claim is not really okay.
>asking me to find a citation for someone else's baseless claim is not really okay.
It is one of the biggest news stories in the last month, and various articles (at least 3 that I can think of) have been here on HN. It's trivially searchable. Asking for a citation is almost certainly bad faith.
>I checked the first two results and not one of them said the man was innocent
It's pretty obscure, but there's this thing called "innocent until proven guilty". The man never had his time in court. The US admitted it was a mistake. What are you looking for? Just being contrarian for the sake of it?
The Supreme Court has even stepped in, which I'm sure you're aware despite pretending not to be:
>On April 7, the U.S. Supreme Court issued a per curiam order, with no recorded dissents, requiring the government to “facilitate [Abrego Garcia’s] return”
And, despite any and all of that! There was no due process. Which, "illegal" or "legal", everyone is supposed to get a due process. If you remove due process for the people you don't like, someone else just needs to claim you're in that group and now you don't get due process! It's like Step 1 of authoritarianism.
Which, since you've not posted anything proving your innocence despite other commenters asking for it, perhaps we should remove your rights to due process.
All you do is ask for "cite?" and then complain when the citation isn't want you asked for, partly because you never ask for anything specific. You're just a troll.
"The Trump administration trapped a wrongly deported man in a catch-22", "There is no evidence that Abrego García is a terrorist or a member of the gang MS-13 as the Trump administration has claimed." from your first link.
Unless you can find a court hearing / docket / charges, or some report about them, he's innocent.
If you think that's not enough, you're probably not innocent either... unless you have a way to prove that no charge exists against you in any jurisdiction in the world. Do you get why people assume innocence here now?
You would think this administration would jump at the opportunity of showing the media any proof that Abrego Garcia was a member of any gang, no matter how circumstantial or weak the proof is. But I've yet to see any of it.
This is not an accurate account of the situation. While I don't agree with the actions the government is taking here, I also don't think we are entitled to our own private facts about it.
Mr Garcia does not have a criminal record, but he was ordered to be deported years ago. He was able to get a temporary reprieve from this by hiring lawyers and working through the legal process, but he did this by almost certainly committing perjury by claiming there were criminal gangs who would kill him if he returned to El Salvador. If you believe the filings in immigration appeals you would have to believe that 99% of the people in the world are being personally pursued by criminal gangs. Perhaps you believe this but I don't find it to be credible. Regardless, whether the legal process is effective doesn't matter here, it IS the legal process and must be followed. My point is the fact Mr Garcia was deported is not itself the issue, it's that it was done in a way that ignores the rule of law (even though it did respect due process). Legally Mr Garcia should be deported eventually, he was only allowed to stay temporarily until he is not "at risk for his life" if he were deported, but the legal process must be respected.
SCOTUS did not command anyone be brought back. They declined to issue an emergency decision blocking an order to 'facilitate' his return, but specifically sent back to the lower court and took issue with the order to 'effectuate' his return. So they are not commanding the government to bring him back, rather they are commanding the government to not prevent his return. Yes this is tedious but reality is often tedious.
> They can now disappear and deport anyone they want
I think you have not made any case that it is valid to assume that we would go from "one person who has already been ordered for deportation by a federal court" who was very publicly deported to "anyone they want" and "disappear".
I basically agree with your sentiment inaccuracy and hyperbole doesn't benefit anyone.
This is a lot of words to say "I don't believe him". None of us really knows, and it's not worth speculating about, because the case is about something much bigger now. It's about the limits of executive authority, separation of powers, and rule of law.
> he did this by almost certainly committing perjury by claiming there were criminal gangs who would kill him if he returned to El Salvador
What evidence is there for this "near certainty"? Your argument here should be with asylum laws, not this individual.
For what it's worth, the situation in El Salvador at the time he left (when he was a minor) does make the claim somewhat credible. There's plenty of evidence that the choice for male youths at that time was leave or join whichever gang controlled your area. The idea that everyone is an "economic migrant" ignores the reality of the situation, which is far more complex.
I don't know in his personal case if he is lying. However, you can get to what the probability of a random applicant for an asylum being truthful very easily. You just need a good estimate of the % of migrants that had to flee gangs or other risk of death (gangs that are still in control of their communities), then compare that to the % that claim they had to flee for those reasons, then subtract.
I don't know what that % is, but we have courts that are deciding these cases every day. The actual court cases are more complex to analyze because lack of adequate council or other factors might influence outcomes. However, of people who attend their interview, about 44% are determined to not have a credible fear.
Protection rackets are pretty big in central america. Look at the publicity about the avocado industry. Protection rackets only work when you go after those people that escape your 'protection' payments. So yes, it's reasonable to assume every person that said no to the racket and fled to the US becomes a pretty big target, it's part of the founding principles/business model of running a protection racket.
So you are saying that anyone who leaves central america can never return home because they would then be murdered? I don't think you are saying that, because people move back and forth from central america every day without being murdered.
An awful lot of people move every day, even from areas where there are protection rackets. Do the protection rackets kill everyone who comes home to visit after moving to another city? How do they keep track of who is 'escaping' and who is just moving because they got married or found a job somewhere else? Again, you aren't suggesting that these rackets ban all movement in and out of the areas they loosely control?
People come to the US primarily to find work at a much higher wage than they would be able to find where they are from. Often there is no opportunity for work whatsoever where they are from. They can have a life here that they would never be able to achieve, they can have healthy children who get medical and dental care and will have a chance at an education and a good life here.
If I were in their shoes I would absolutely try to come here illegally if I couldn't do so legally. If I was caught I would, without hesitation, lie and say I would be murdered if I returned home, or whatever else my lawyer carefully prompted me to say, just like Mr Garcia and almost everyone else claiming this. The reality is if these protection rackets were here in the US and not at all in El Salvador, Mr Garcia would almost certainly still choose to live here and just pay the protection money rather than returning home. I doubt that he was ever influenced by gangs in his decision to move here, and I doubt that he has any fear of them if he would return, and I don't think it would change his decision either way.
You based this off of nothing: "he did this by almost certainly committing perjury by claiming there were criminal gangs who would kill him if he returned to El Salvador."
"I don't find it to be credible"
I explained why it could easily be that the many coming from El Salvador when MS13 was heavily active could in fact be making this legitimate claim. It's a small world with social media. Yes, local MS13 that didn't get paid can catch when someone is back in the country. These are very sophisticated/organized gangs at higher level (at least according to the current US administration).
So you believe he is being honest. That's perfectly reasonable. Do you really belief that if there was no threat to him at all he would admit this, stop appealing his deportation order, leave his wife and children behind, give up any possibility of being supporting his family financially and go back to El Salvador?
Which one of our beliefs seems more credible to you, that a man would claim to be in danger (which doesn't hurt anyone) to let him stay with his wife and children and access to employment which pays hundreds or thousands of times higher, or that he would say he's not in danger (even though it doesn't benefit anyone) which hurts his wife and children very badly, and forces him to be separated from his family and the country he has lived in his entire adult life?
The situation he is in is beyond cruel and unjust, but that doesn't mean he's telling the truth.
I'm not going to make judgements on people who say that their life is in danger when I have zero actual facts just 'popular internet factoids' and administration propaganda that conflicts with the actual facts in the court case (they now are claiming he was a human trafficker and that the court order was illegal).
He proved to the immigration court that his life was in danger, to the point that the court ordered he not be removed to El Salvador. What's next, are you going to claim that court findings, experts in the field and based on hearings/evidence/etc, for criminals should be overridden by your gut feelings? Because of course all criminals claim they are innocent, so court rulings should be ignored? This is the friggen slippy slope people talked about. You see that right? Ignore the court order because populist government should have that power based on their feelings. Or because after violating the order the government claims the order was somehow not valid/illegal.
He didn't just make a claim, the US immigration court found his claim valid enough to issue a legally binding order that he can not be return to El Salvador. The President ignored the process for overturning that order, the President ignored the order itself, and sent this person not only to El Salvador, but to a prison solely housing the M13 members that the United States Immigration court found legally were a risk to this man's life.
I don't think you are bothering to read anything I've said. I've said over and over the court order should be followed, because the rule of law is essential and the court order must be followed regardless. I also think he's lying.
You are allowed to form your own opinions also, you don't just have to read a news article and then try your best to update your thoughts to conform to the daily talking points for whichever side you follow.
And I have said over and over that blanket judging people on at best second hand knowledge but mainly hearsay and assumptions is evil, and the root of evil. In society we have to setup systems and work to make those systems work, not place the burden of the systems imperfection on random people because of ltbarcly3's non-direct fact based feelings.
You went pretty low in your comment by the way. Really shows you operating out of your feelings. Which is understandable, we are all human. But also shows maybe you shouldn't be making life or death judgements of other people.
BTW I think our immigration system has been HEAVILY abused by Democrats to get immigration policies they can't any other way. That they exploit more conservative people like me's empathy to create a loophole. That doesn't mean I judge the people that came here and placed determination of their life in our system, I blame the Democrats, and I try to change the system. Not condemn random people caught up in that. I want change, but this is the absolutely wrong way to go about it. I don't want a soul crushing machine running my country. I want the USA I grew up loving, that my family sacrificed for. The shinning beacon on a hill. And I'm not for turning off that light just because it's hard. Having civil rights is hard and expensive and nuanced.
I will ALWAYS try to learn and incorporate new thinking/understanding of events. Not sure how that is a shortcoming. It's actually really hard and uncomfortable.
I'm not going low at all. If you actually read my comments:
I think:
- he's lying about being in danger, but I also say that is reasonable for him to lie and I would do the same thing without hesitation
- it's unjust, unfair, and cruel to deport him after half his life and entire adult life, and his wife and children here
- that legally he should *NOT* be deported while his deportation order is on hold because that is what the law says
- that legally he should (and probably would) eventually be deported since that is just what the law says and he was ordered to be deported already, and that is literally what 'temporary' implies (the rule of law cuts both ways)
- I never condemned the man or made any unfair assumptions about him. I certainly never said or implied at all that he was a criminal, that he had any relationship to any gang, that he should have been deported extra-legally and put in a foreign prison without trial, because that is all insane. I said his rights WERE violated, but specifically that his right to due process was not violated (he did have a trial already and lost). (Being returned to your home country is not a punishment and it doesn't deprive you of any rights, excepting if you have already become a citizen).
So my point, if I made it poorly, is that this individual being deported is not a legal injustice against him, most likely he should be deported under current law, and most likely he would have been deported in the next year or two in any case. The injustice here is that his deportation was carried out extra-legally and in defiance of the law and that the US is complicit (or really actively causing) humans to be jailed without due process or really any process.
That means that he was a father, that he was (or was not) a member of MS13, that he had (or didn't have) a job, that he was a nice man (or not a nice man), that he love (or hated) his mother, that his kids are honor students (or hoodlums) is all irrelevant and nobody should care about it in the context of what is going on. He was here illegally, but he was also legally allowed to stay for a little while longer. That any person was extra legally handed over to a foreign government with instructions and payment to imprison them without trial is beyond unacceptable.
I don't know what's low about any of that. It's very hard to comment in an online space on political issues because people, in general, do not use their ability to read and comprehend. They read the first 5 words, assume that the rest is either "good" or "bad" depending on whether it's leaning towards the opinion they read from whichever outlet conveys to them the talking points for their political party, and then they react by repeating those same talking points. If you have an opinion that is anything but repeating what one of the two approved opinions is that day people really fail to cope with that.
"you don't just have to read a news article and then try your best to update your thoughts to conform to the daily talking points" is going low.
"I think: - he's lying about being in danger" - this is the basic premise you have made this entire time. Yet you also continue to claim:
"I never condemned the man or made any unfair assumptions about him"
Your entire premise is a blanket judgement should be applied to people seeking asylum as to them being liars, based on 'because of course they are'. While I agree that there are strong incentives to lie, I don't use solely that incentive to then baseless claim 'he and all asylum seekers are lying' like you continue to do. We have immigration courts and people directly responsible for determining this better than you or I. They determined the threat to his life was real enough to put a stay on him being sent back to his home country even though they denied his asylum claim. My 'current days talking point' position is that in America we don't apply blanket assumptions like this, and that we have a system of rules, laws, courts, and judges that make those determination. A truly toxic position to hold today I guess because... something unrelated to current talking points? I've held this position my entire life. As did every single person around me. From conservative grandfathers that fought in WW2, to hippie parents, to teachers, to... basically everyone until recently. But I'm adopting the current day take?
I think 'all members of XYZ immigrant group are liars' is a horrible take, and has led us down bad paths in the past. Using that claim to bypass due process, in situations where people's actual lives are in danger, because the Constitution/due process/the American way is expensive and takes too long is a popular take/is too hard on the scale of an entire country full of people, I just don't share it.
It's not that they should be assumed to be liars, I never meant that.
It's that there is no reason to listen to what they say. Either they can provide evidence that they deserve asylum or not. Everyone would say they should get asylum.
If they were not in danger: they say they were in danger
If they were in danger: they say they were in danger
Since they say the same thing either way, it is pointless to even factor in what they say. Some people are telling the truth, some people are lying, they all say the same thing so what someone says has no information value.
When making the initial determination on whether to allow someone to stay in the country, they do not have to show evidence, they just have to make a credible claim, and about 85% of those claims are accepted. Then later they have to show evidence at their interview and hearing. Of the people who pass the bar for the initial claim about 90% are not actually granted asylum, but about 80% drop out of the system (although the numbers don't prove they were lying because there are other factors). So initially 85% are approved (like the person in question here) and then later only 10% of those people actually show sufficient evidence of a credible fear. This doesn't prove that most of them are lying, but of all the people that claim they are in danger to be allowed to enter/stay 90% don't back it up with evidence, and 80% don't even complete the process, which I think is very strong evidence that a substantial majority are lying (even if you give the benefit of the doubt and think that maybe 50% of them can't complete the process because they don't understand it, lack resources, etc, that is still 50% that were lying).
It's notable that during covid, when claiming you were in danger did not give you an easy way to enter the country immediately, people also stopped claiming they were in danger.
Finally, it is probably important to quantify what 'danger' actually means. Is it a 10% chance of being killed? 1%? 1/1000? Does going home have to be more dangerous than the transportation to get there? Does it have to be more dangerous than riding a motorcycle? The murder rate in El Salvador is currently lower than Baltimore, a LOT lower. It's beyond unreasonable to defer deportations to a place if it's safer than where the person is staying now.
You've said he's "almost certainly committing <criminal> perjury". Based solely on the category of immigrant that he is. I think that is abhorrent, un-American, and violates the Constitution. In the USA 'all men' are created equal, and our rights apply to 'people' not just 'citizens' (a class that the current regime now wants to redefine to not include natural born Americans, forget slippery slope we're now on a water slide).
You keep trying to justify your claim with 'we need to categorize/make determinations on these groups because reasons' but not engaging with that you think we should categorize a class of immigrants as perjures simply because of the class they fit in' because to do otherwise makes immigration policies hard/able to be abused'. We used to believe as a nation in the theory we would rather that 10 criminals go free if it prevents one innocent person from going to prison. I get it's hard, and it has negative impacts to follow our Constitution and what our nation believes in. It's so hard that people have had to die to secure those things. It's so hard that my grandfathers faced crippling life long injuries fighting for their belief in it in WW2. My understanding it's hard doesn't mean I think we should just throw it away. Blanket 'xyz people are criminal liars' has no place in the United States of America. Systems that are aware of the incentive to lie, sure. But that is why we have courts and a rule of law, not labels on entire groups of people. That Democrats allowed abuse doesn't mean we give up on what America is. You can keep giving me bullet points but your basic premise is so flawed to me they don't matter.
Imagine you were talking about the Chinese in the U.S. in the 1800s. You’d have the same kinds of bullet points,claims about fraud, about them being impossible to integrate, claims it just too many people, about systems being overwhelmed. That’s how we got the Chinese Exclusion Act. A whole race of people labeled suspect by default, stripped of legal protections, barred from citizenship, and assumed to be lying just to get in. It was wrong then, and it’s just as wrong now. Policies built on fear and group guilt erode everything we claim to stand for. If we don’t push back against that, we’re not protecting our country we’re abandoning it.
I said I think it's unfair and cruel that he is being forced to leave at all. I think it's immoral. I also think he told the story that let him stay with his family rather than the truth, and I don't fault him if he did do that. Anyone would do that.
I think you should, for practice and because it would help you be a better person, try to have a disagreement with someone without thinking they must be racist. I think it would be new for you but I think it would be healthy to try it.
Remember when you said you didn't go low? Look at your last paragraph.
I don't think you are racist, I never called you racist, but I think what you are saying is wrong and is the type of group guilt assignment that has been used for very f'd up stuff in the past and not how we do things in the US. Again, your entire premise is he's lying because of the class he is in. That is the slippery slope that I am calling out. Your own words. You didn't judge him unfairly you say, you just said he committed criminal perjury based on your knowledge that he's a foreigner seeking asylum. I said that the system should be structured to recognize the incentives to lie, but we shouldn't judge people based on their class, you continued to say all foreigners seeking asylum are probably liars, especially your original example individual, based SOLELY on that he is a foreigner seeking asylum.
I explained my reasoning. And I even said I agreed that the Democrats have broken the system, and that the courts needed to be structured to account for the incentive to lie. But I didn't like classifying a group/class of people liars based on their class. 'All poor people steal because they are poor and have incentive' is basically what you are saying. 'All people in Alabama are dumb, Bob is from Alabama, Bob's dumb'. Nah, I refuse all of that, labeling a group, assigning a characteristic because Bob's a member of a group. I never just tried to shout you down saying 'racist', I responded in way too many words :)
And again you resort to the low, personal attacks. Super lame, basic internet dig you gave there too. Because I quoted your words back at you and I don't think in the USA we should classify groups as guilty.
You are calling me a racist and saying I'm somehow responsible for attacks on chinese people 100 years before I was born. It's so lazy and straw-man, you don't seem able to honestly engage with what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is that if you can show that it is very likely that 99% of the people from Alabama are dumb (this is not true but for the sake of argument), and Bob is from Alabama, there's approximately a 99% chance that Bob is dumb if you don't know anything else about Bob to improve your estimate. This is just true, and it's obvious, and if you read what I said it's exactly how I framed it (he's very likely or almost certainly lying). This isn't because of class, or race, or age, or whether they are trans or whatever else.
One more time:
People come to the border or get caught in the US without a visa. If they say "I'm in danger" about 85% of them are allowed to stay in the US while their claim is processed. Of those people who stay, only 10% end up being approved. 10% are denied, and 80% don't show up for the interview, get arrested for something else, self deport, etc. So best case, if you trust our judges, half are not credible. Since the 20% that show up probably, on average, have the best cases it's a fairly safe bet that the 80% who don't show up wouldn't break 50/50, maybe more like 80/20. So 74% would be found not credible (10% who are denied with interview, and 80% of the 80% who don't show up), 26% credible. That's a pretty overwhelming majority who are not making an honest claim. But again, if we just go with the numbers we know, it's 50/50, half are lying (or if you prefer "making an incredible claim they are unable to support with plausible evidence").
No, I said that blanket judgements like you are making are what led to the US to write ahorant legislation against the Chinese, the closest parallel in our nation's history where language like yours have been used to talk about immigrants to reform the system, not some random strawman example. I'm have not said you support that. I said 'here is a very related example language similar to yours went down the slippery path I see your language could'. It's been nothing about you. Your pseudo-statistics are BS. We have immigrant courts/judges we don't use personal rough pseudo statistics to judge people as criminals (in this case criminal perjurer). Down your pseudo statistics path lies not only racism but vigilantism (citizens proving someone a criminal based on very weak premises) where the majority number of your 'statistics' zero actual finding is made only assumptions of guilt. I agree it's plausible that large numbers of asylum seekers are gaming the system. I agree the the Democrats probably facilitated abuse of the system because they can't get the immigration policies they want. I think it's bullshit and un-American to extend that to 'This random dude is a criminal perjeror' based on only that.
You don't seem to be able to comprehend my basic argument. I concede that there are incentives to lie and the system should account for that, but that we shouldn't label a class criminal perjurers because down that path lies nothing good. I've given you more response/good faith than you have me. You keep saying you haven't labeled this man anything but then call him a criminal perjurer and imply his grounds for being in the country are bullshit. But other than that, yeah, you haven't called him anything. All based on 'he sought asylum'.
You say 10% are approved, which matches Americas past 'We would rather 10 criminals go free than 1 innocent person imprisoned'. By your words it sounds like this is a part of America's thought about itself/it's character that you don't agree with. (Now talking about your personal judgement).
If half the people are lying, then half are criminal perjurers. I'm not labeling a class, I'm just believing what the numbers say.
You keep insisting that I'm making broad racist claims about a group of people, over and over.
You seem to think I have some secret agenda to support Trump or his policy, and you keep arguing as though arguing against that agenda is the same as arguing against what I'm saying. This is why I say you aren't honestly engaging and you are repeating talking points. I don't have a secret agenda, I'm a registered Democrat and I've never voted for a Republican as far as I can remember. I also think that most people claiming asylum are not being honest, because that's just what the information I have available clearly suggests.
You want to pick an arbitrarily impossible standard of evidence which is not reasonable and not even used in actual courts when evaluating whether testimony is credible or honest (that there is a criminal perjury conviction). People are caught lying in court every day, even when that's obvious and provable they are rarely (as in almost never) pursued for perjury charges.
Frankly at this point it's clear that you kindof agree with what I'm saying, that a lot of people lie in this process, and it's not the ground truth you are disputing but rather you want me to not say it because it might have consequences if we say things like this, but also you think the system needs to be reformed to address this problem, but also we shouldn't admit there's a problem.
Combined with "oops can't get them back" it's very powerful. Combine it with not advertising faces of snatched people on broadcast TV, and it's a very useful tool inded. People will just disappear. It won't be legal or illegal, just a thing that happens from time to time. Police won't search too hard for the missing people, because no good can come out of finding out.
> it'll start with sure actual criminals
Have they targeted any single criminal yet? Because they have sent two planes of people here to Brazil and nobody there was wanted by either country.
Also, Brazil has a list of wanted criminals at Interpol with known addresses in Florida that they aren't arresting.
They've already sent an innocent man there and acknowledged he was innocent, then refused to bring him back when the courts, the opposition and finally SCOTUS each commanded them to bring him back.
This was just a test, and it was successful. They can now disappear and deport anyone they want with no repercussions whatsoever. The GOP is a criminal organization and their followers share the responsibility of what happens next.
> then refused to bring him back when the courts
It was extra ridiculous/insulting/terrifying to see the heads of both countries in the same room saying that there was nothing they could do about the situation.
SCOTUS granting the president far reaching immunity was an invitation for the president to be in contempt of SCOTUS whenever it pleases him, and to just piss on the constitution he took an oath on defending.
It’s possible he is already dead, as he was basically sent right in to the arms of the gangs he fled from.
The fact that no charges have ever been brought against him by the Salvadoran government, yet they still claim to be holding him there lends credence to this. Why would they not simply release him? If he's dead it would be a major problem for Bukele's government as well as the US government. So evidently we're in "disappeared" territory now.
> This was just a test, and it was successful
It's too soon to say it's "successful": SCOTUS was 9-0 against and that was still only a few days ago, so far from being a success it's now turning into a constitutional crisis... assuming the administration doesn't fold, or flip-flop, or some combination of the two - which we've already seen plenty of[1].
----------
[1] the seemingly arbitrary and capricious tariff changes announced almost every day ever since the-day-after-April-fools-day.
So, he’s being brought back then?
Roll a D20: if it's even he comes back, if it's less than 10 he mysteriously disappears.
I wouldn't even put the odds of him coming back at 50%
20: He gets brought back in good condition, 19-16: He is gonna get brought back in terrible condition, 15-11 he doesn't come back, 10-1 he is dead
Note that I said "even" and "less than ten". Even ignoring damage he's already suffered in the prison, the "good outcomes" are still only 30% (10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20).
If you read the SCOTUS ruling, all it upholds from the lower courts decision is that the USG must 'facilitate', not 'effectuate' his release. AFAIK the Court doesn't have a way to order El Salvador to do so
Wasn't the argument for the right to bear arms always that it would prevent a criminal government from having it's way?
Now, how's that working out so far?
Not “always”. It wasn’t the reason that became an amendment, national defense was. People later emphasized that rather off-label justification when state militias were nationalized and the main purpose of the amendment became wholly obsolete.
It, indirectly, was, because it was the reason the country initially relied on decentralized citizen militias for defense in the first place. Many of the founders were worried that a standing federal army would be a tool of oppression, and wanted to keep most of the firepower distributed amongst the populace.
The system more or less worked until the Spanish American War, when the government realized that the militias need some sort of standard in order to integrate properly with the regular army when called up. This led to the creation of the National Guard in 1903. It was tightly integrated into the Army structure in 1933.
What arguably made the Amendment obsolete was the advance of technology. By the early 20th century conventional warfighting took too much firepower, support, and coordination for a loose citizen militia to conduct. At best they could form the core of an insurgent force, but the goal is always to not get to that point.
In theory, that insurgent force could work against a tyrannical federal government. In practice, even if most of the people with the civilian firepower weren't supporting the tyranny I'm not sure it would work out. Conducting an insurgency against a foreign occupier is a lot different than conducting one against a domestic oppressor.
> In theory, that insurgent force could work against a tyrannical federal government. In practice, even if most of the people with the civilian firepower weren't supporting the tyranny I'm not sure it would work out. Conducting an insurgency against a foreign occupier is a lot different than conducting one against a domestic oppressor.
Yeah, precisely my personal take against the current "from utility" argument in the amendment's favor: it's very much not clear that they're especially useful for resisting oppressive governments, for one thing because those are often quite popular at first, and for another, because successful examples of that tend to involve a ton of foreign aid, making the role of private arms rather minor. Meanwhile, examples involving foreign invaders are extremely different (and also often involve lots of foreign aid).
Like, maybe the right deserves to stand anyway for other reasons (maybe it just ought to! Maybe it doesn't need a reason!) but I think that particular argument for it is really misguided, especially if one takes it seriously when forming one's opinions about the broader political landscape. IMO there is no meaningful safeguard against tyranny to be found in that amendment.
Today I learned, thanks! As a European, I'm not overly familiar with the genesis of American law ;)
It's okay, neither is the vast majority of americans
America's gun culture is very closely tied to its settler culture. Most right wing gun nuts are barely able to conceal their fears/hopes for a race war in all but name.
That said, there are plenty of examples of progressive forces arming themselves. The Black Panthers are a good example. Without their armed militancy I think the US government would have been a lot less likely to capitulate to the demands of the peaceful civil rights activists.
No. It was what peoppe who want to use guns to force own autocracy say.
The people with guns support these measures.
This. The 2A absolutists want guns to pacify their neighbors, not the government.
This is nonsense. Plenty of nonviolent, peaceful groups carry arms.
Leftists (e.g. Anarchists, Marxists, Socialists, Communists, Queer Liberation, Black Liberation, etc.) groups typically are pro-firearms. Not always, but plenty are. The Black Panthers, famously, were armed, but so are are orgs like the Pink Pistols. Martin Luther King Jr. had many guns for self defense, and carried a revolver at times. Marx famously said that workers should be armed.
Centrists (e.g. Democrats, some Labour parties) typically abhor guns, and value the decorum and principle of the instution to keep us all safe. They are a "if society is well ordered, then there's no need for arms" group.
Right wing folks (e.g. Republicans, Proud Boys, KKK, etc.) are the folks who you are describing -- by and large supporting these measures and also want to use firearms to exert control.
It's really, really important if you consider yourself to be a progressive to ask, "Who will gun control laws in America be used to prosecute? Will that be minority groups dispraportionately?"
Historically and presently, armed minorities are more difficult to oppress, and many many leftist groups have historically and presently been armed for the purposes of community defense. By suggesting that arming oneself is a right wing position you erase history and erode current efforts for folks to build community safety systems.
All* the people lamenting the current administration are scared of or want to ban firearms... whoops!
Now, imagine if those people had gotten their way, and how much easier it would be for the administration to do some of the things people claim it wants to do (e.g. gulags).
*Broad generalization
>Now, imagine if those people had gotten their way, and how much easier it would be for the administration to do some of the things people claim it wants to do (e.g. gulags).
Given that none of the people with firearms have done a damn thing to stop this and how many of them even voted for Trump and support his policies, because American gun and militia culture has been infested with Nazis since forever, I don't see how it could possibly have been any easier. There has been and continues to be no resistance to Trump of any significance. When he does open up the gulags for real, it's going to be America's armed patriot militias who round people up for the regime.
https://documentedny.com/2025/04/14/ice-bukele-cecot-tren-de...
Probably more then one.
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Funny, because the administration testified in court that it was a mistake that he was sent. Claiming the stay was illegal was retconned after the fact, not the cause for the deportation.
This is entirely disconnected from reality [1]. If he was not an illegal alien, he would not have been deported at all.
[1]: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/abrego-garcia-and-ms-13...
The claim that administration supporters are now using is that the legal 'administrative stay' placed upon him was illegal, That is what 'stay' means in the context of what I said, not his 'stay in the country'. Maybe don't get so righteous next time especially when you don't bother to understand what someone says.
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https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9vedkm7w2do
I'm assuming the response to this is going to be along the lines of 'oh this doesnt prove he was innocent, they say he was a member of ms-13 etc etc etc' because evidently innocent until proven guilty (which they provided no proof of) isn't a thing anymore
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"The US government has conceded Mr Ábrego García was deported because of an "administrative error", though it also says he is a member of the MS-13 gang - something his lawyer denies. "
Try actually reading the article next time. Again, the burden of proof here should be falling on PROVING he is a member of ms-13, not proving he isn't. You are obviously arguing this in bad faith.
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Your link says the opposite of what you claim.
> Although the asylum claim proved to be time-barred—aliens are required to bring such claims within a year of entering the country—in October 2019 Judge Jones did grant his request for “withholding of removal” based on his “well-founded” fear of persecution by Barrio 18. The government did not appeal, so Jones’s ruling is now final.
> The removal being in error does not make him innocent.
Innocent is the default. That's a fundamental part of how our legal system works. The government must prove you guilty.
They did not have "every right to remove him." As the article you linked says, Abrego Garcia was specifically granted a withholding of removal order.
To only one specific country. Not in general.
I can’t find any proof you’re innocent, only a complete lack or evidence that you are guilty.
Guess we better send you to CECOT. Have fun with your 0.6m^2 of living space. Too bad you weren’t innocent.
He's an illegal who had a credible (like actually credible, like you could pitch it to someone in the year 2002, not the flimsy 2020s BS) claim for asylum but didn't file in time. He was eventually caught up in the system for reasons not related to the commission of any crime. ICE looked at his case, and gave him a "we won't deport you because your case is pending" status.
> He's an illegal ...
Edit; see below for details
This is false. He has no legal status [1]. He could be removed, just not to El Salvador. That does not give him legal status or make him a resident.
[1]: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/abrego-garcia-and-ms-13...
Interesting. More details about that status can be found here https://immigrationequality.org/asylum/asylum-manual/immigra...
I've heard the legal status mentioned by an online-person-who-should-know-better. I'll let them know.
"Withholding of removal" is a form of legal status.
They can deport you (if they find a willing third party nation), as it's not a path to permanent resident status, but until they do so, you're allowed to reside and work.
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/sites/default/fil...
> As in the case of asylum, a person who is granted withholding of removal is protected from being returned to his or her home country and receives the right to remain in the United States and work legally. But at the end of the court process, an immigration judge enters a deportation order and then tells the government they cannot execute that order. That is, the “removal” to a person’s home country is “withheld.” However, the government is still allowed to deport that person to a different country if the other country agrees to accept them.
> Withholding of removal provides a form of protection that is less certain than asylum, leaving its recipients in a sort of limbo. A person who is granted withholding of removal may never leave the United States without executing that removal order, cannot petition to bring family members to the United States, and does not gain a path to citizenship. And unlike asylum, when a family seeks withholding of removal together a judge may grant protection to the parent while denying it to the children, leading to family separation.
So this is a bit weird. The initial claim seems not well defined, because "legal" / "illegal" person is not really a thing without more context, so you can interpret it in many ways. The main takeaway though is "after the hearing, he's not breaking any rules by staying and working in the country". That's legal enough for me for a casual comment - I'll stay with my original then - he entered illegally and afterwards was allowed to legally remain.
This is simply false. He broke the law, was a criminal, had no right to reside in the US. Saying he was innocent is also simply false.
Have you got the actual court decision about the crime? Not police accusations or similar - confirmation he was actually judged and found guilty in court?
> you're allowed to reside and work.
False on both counts and contradictory to the source you cite. There is no right to reside, and you could only work if you were additionally authorised.
> "Withholding of removal" is a form of legal status.
In the same sense as trespassing is a legal status. The way in which it is not a legal status is that he does not have the status of legally residing in the US.
Here, I’ll quote my source again.
> As in the case of asylum, a person who is granted withholding of removal is protected from being returned to his or her home country and receives the right to remain in the United States and work legally.
I’ve seen you claim 1+1=3 all over this thread, so the gaslighting isn’t gonna work.
> In the same sense as trespassing is a legal status.
No. In the same sense that you’re allowed to stay in a homeless shelter legally for a while, but not necessarily forever.
Your source is wrong.
https://www.tahirih.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Withholdi...
MY CLIENT HAS BEEN GRANTED WITHHOLDING OF REMOVAL… NOW WHAT?
Your client may apply for an Employment Authorization Document by using the form I765 available on the USCIS website (www.uscis.gov). Her Employment Authorization Document will then be sent to her most recent address on file with USCIS. It is therefore important to make sure that not only the court but also USCIS is informed of any changes in her address through use of the form AR-11 (also available on the USCIS website). The EAD is only issued for one year at a time and should be renewed with ample time (at least three months) to allow for processing.
https://immigrationequality.org/asylum/asylum-manual/immigra...
> An applicant who has won withholding of removal does not receive as many benefits as an asylee. The individual can seek work authorization
https://immigrationequality.org/asylum/asylum-manual/withhol...
> they must have a valid CIS-issued employment authorization document in order to work lawfully in the United States.
---
Not one single claim I made is false, while this whole thread is in response to a blatantly false claim, that an innocent man was deported. You should check the mirror.
It's been pointed out, over and over again, that our system presumes innocence until convicted in a court of law. You know this. Don't pretend otherwise.
Until the government finds a different country to send him to, he's here legally. He's not breaking any law by remaining while awaiting that. Your source backs me up, in its first paragraph - "he can now safely remain in this country".
He had the required work authorization, as well.
https://wtop.com/maryland/2025/04/us-judge-to-question-trump...
> He also was given a federal permit to work in the United States, where he was a metal worker and union member, according to Abrego Garcia’s lawyers.
A court has ruled that someone broke the law, though; the administration. As upheld by SCOTUS, even.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a949_lkhn.pdf
> The United States acknowledges that Abrego Garcia was subject to a withholding order forbidding his removal to El Salvador, and that the removal to El Salvador was therefore illegal.
Here is the initial ruling against him for being present in the US illegally:
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mdd.578...
> The Respondent was arrested in the company of other > > ranking gang members and was confirmed to be a ranking member of the MS-13 gang by a > > proven and reliable source.
The same ruling was upheld on appeal which specifically upheld the finding of him being part of MS-13, and in the US illegally: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mdd.578...
He had his day in court, twice, he was not innocent. I never contended that the government did not wrongfully deport him, not once, but that does not make him innocent. He is still an MS-13 member that is illegally in the US and subject to deportation at the pleasure of the executive.
Word games aren't going to change the facts.
That's not a criminal court; it's a wing of the Executive. They don't make guilty/not-guilty determinations at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_judge_(United_Stat...
The proceedings are administrative, the people are "respondents" instead of "defendants", etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_proceedings
You're also citing the government's assertions. If assertions were enough to deem someone a convicted criminal, we wouldn't need trials. It has never been proven, "beyond a reasonable doubt", that he was a member of MS-13.
The "proven and reliable source" they cite is a corrupt cop. https://newrepublic.com/article/194010/kilmar-abrego-garcia-...
> The Maryland police officer who formally attested to Abrego Garcia’s supposed gang affiliation in 2019—when he was detained the first time—was subsequently suspended from the force for a serious transgression: giving confidential information about a case to a sex worker, The New Republic has established.
Your two citations also preceed his being granted withholding of removal. At the time of his deportation, he had legal status here, until they found a valid place to send him. The deportation - again, per SCOTUS - was the illegal bit.
https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2025/kilmar-abrego-gar...
> But in Abrego Garcia’s case, to revoke his protections, the U.S. government “would have been required under law to reopen his immigration court proceedings and prove to the judge that he was a member of MS-13 and therefore no longer eligible for withholding.”
> The deportation - again, per SCOTUS - was the illegal bit.
Never disputed this. Why do you keep returning to this when it is not in question? Do you not get how the US could deport someone and the person still not be innocent, being an MS-13 gang member and an illegal alien?
> Why do you keep returning to this when it is not in question?
Because you keep falsely claiming the guy is a criminal. He has not been convicted of any crime; his membership in MS-13 is an allegation only. (And a shaky one.) Until convicted of a crime, our system presumes him to be innocent.
The only demonstrably, provably, without-a-doubt illegal act here was the deportation.
We deport and refuse entry to non-criminals (including for plenty of non-criminal acts, or even just vibes) all the time. It doesn't prove guilt.
> The only demonstrably, provably, without-a-doubt illegal act here was the deportation.
This is false. You and I know that it is provably, without-a-doubt, that he entered the US illegally and was remaining in the US illegally. There is nobody disputing this.
> You and I know that it is provably, without-a-doubt, that he entered the US illegally and was remaining in the US illegally.
No one has charged him, let alone convicted him, of a crime for entering the country as a minor. He has no criminal record. That's a fact.
You and I know he received withholding of removal (and a work permit!). His remaining here at that point was legal, albeit potentially temporary.
The Supreme Court of the United States has ruled the deportation an illegal act. No portion of the judicial branch has yet weighed in on Garcia's actions.
I don't disagree, but I bet ICE doesn't see it that way. I mean why else would someone who's been granted a legal status pending his case wind up on their list of people to roll up on.
Citation for this: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/abrego-garcia-and-ms-13...
And that does make the deportation erroneous, that does not make him innocent.
If you google "innocent man sent to el salvador" you'll get dozens on dozens on dozens of results from which you can pick your favorite news site to catch up.
I checked the first two results and not one of them said the man was innocent [1][2]. It's okay if the claim is baseless and there is no citation, but asking me to find a citation for someone else's baseless claim is not really okay.
[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/apr/14/abrego-garci...
[2]: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-meet-with-el-salvador...
>asking me to find a citation for someone else's baseless claim is not really okay.
It is one of the biggest news stories in the last month, and various articles (at least 3 that I can think of) have been here on HN. It's trivially searchable. Asking for a citation is almost certainly bad faith.
>I checked the first two results and not one of them said the man was innocent
It's pretty obscure, but there's this thing called "innocent until proven guilty". The man never had his time in court. The US admitted it was a mistake. What are you looking for? Just being contrarian for the sake of it?
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Last reply, because you are very obviously trolling and commenting in bad faith.
>the US government had every right to deport him,
No.
These are all from that article. Special attention to "his removal was illegal".
>Abrego Garcia, who has no criminal record in the United States or anywhere else
>the government has conceded that it wrongfully removed Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia from the United States
>his removal was illegal because an immigration judge had granted him “withholding of removal”
>Jones’s 2019 ruling, barring Abrego Garcia’s removal
The Supreme Court has even stepped in, which I'm sure you're aware despite pretending not to be:
>On April 7, the U.S. Supreme Court issued a per curiam order, with no recorded dissents, requiring the government to “facilitate [Abrego Garcia’s] return”
And, despite any and all of that! There was no due process. Which, "illegal" or "legal", everyone is supposed to get a due process. If you remove due process for the people you don't like, someone else just needs to claim you're in that group and now you don't get due process! It's like Step 1 of authoritarianism.
Which, since you've not posted anything proving your innocence despite other commenters asking for it, perhaps we should remove your rights to due process.
Our system deems people innocent until proven guilty of a crime. That has not happened - he is not charged with any.
Can you cite anything showing him having been convicted of something?
I made no claim one way or the other. I asked you to cite a claim.
All you do is ask for "cite?" and then complain when the citation isn't want you asked for, partly because you never ask for anything specific. You're just a troll.
Then here’s the cite.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence
You probably were taught this in elementary school.
"The Trump administration trapped a wrongly deported man in a catch-22", "There is no evidence that Abrego García is a terrorist or a member of the gang MS-13 as the Trump administration has claimed." from your first link.
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Unless you can find a court hearing / docket / charges, or some report about them, he's innocent.
If you think that's not enough, you're probably not innocent either... unless you have a way to prove that no charge exists against you in any jurisdiction in the world. Do you get why people assume innocence here now?
He entered illegally, had no legal status, had his asylum request rejected [1]. He was not innocent, he could be deported, just not to El Salvador.
[1]: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/abrego-garcia-and-ms-13...
I think you're arguing in bad faith.
You would think this administration would jump at the opportunity of showing the media any proof that Abrego Garcia was a member of any gang, no matter how circumstantial or weak the proof is. But I've yet to see any of it.
He entered illegally, had no legal status, had his asylum request rejected [1]. He was not innocent, he could be deported, just not to El Salvador.
[1]: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/abrego-garcia-and-ms-13...
You're moving the goalposts. You were arguing about his alleged gang membership and now your point is that he was an illegal.
Also, other users showed that his deportation was suspended as he had been threatened by the gang members you allege he's a member of.
Not even almost once did this discussion start with me claiming he was a member of a gang.
Check any website with news from the last few weeks.
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This is some grade A trolling.
Yeah, imagine making a false claim and then asking other people to cite it for you.
Cite? Really? I haven’t seen an article about the situation or the visit that didn’t mention it.
This is not an accurate account of the situation. While I don't agree with the actions the government is taking here, I also don't think we are entitled to our own private facts about it.
Mr Garcia does not have a criminal record, but he was ordered to be deported years ago. He was able to get a temporary reprieve from this by hiring lawyers and working through the legal process, but he did this by almost certainly committing perjury by claiming there were criminal gangs who would kill him if he returned to El Salvador. If you believe the filings in immigration appeals you would have to believe that 99% of the people in the world are being personally pursued by criminal gangs. Perhaps you believe this but I don't find it to be credible. Regardless, whether the legal process is effective doesn't matter here, it IS the legal process and must be followed. My point is the fact Mr Garcia was deported is not itself the issue, it's that it was done in a way that ignores the rule of law (even though it did respect due process). Legally Mr Garcia should be deported eventually, he was only allowed to stay temporarily until he is not "at risk for his life" if he were deported, but the legal process must be respected.
SCOTUS did not command anyone be brought back. They declined to issue an emergency decision blocking an order to 'facilitate' his return, but specifically sent back to the lower court and took issue with the order to 'effectuate' his return. So they are not commanding the government to bring him back, rather they are commanding the government to not prevent his return. Yes this is tedious but reality is often tedious.
> They can now disappear and deport anyone they want
I think you have not made any case that it is valid to assume that we would go from "one person who has already been ordered for deportation by a federal court" who was very publicly deported to "anyone they want" and "disappear".
I basically agree with your sentiment inaccuracy and hyperbole doesn't benefit anyone.
This is a lot of words to say "I don't believe him". None of us really knows, and it's not worth speculating about, because the case is about something much bigger now. It's about the limits of executive authority, separation of powers, and rule of law.
> he did this by almost certainly committing perjury by claiming there were criminal gangs who would kill him if he returned to El Salvador
What evidence is there for this "near certainty"? Your argument here should be with asylum laws, not this individual.
For what it's worth, the situation in El Salvador at the time he left (when he was a minor) does make the claim somewhat credible. There's plenty of evidence that the choice for male youths at that time was leave or join whichever gang controlled your area. The idea that everyone is an "economic migrant" ignores the reality of the situation, which is far more complex.
I don't know in his personal case if he is lying. However, you can get to what the probability of a random applicant for an asylum being truthful very easily. You just need a good estimate of the % of migrants that had to flee gangs or other risk of death (gangs that are still in control of their communities), then compare that to the % that claim they had to flee for those reasons, then subtract.
I don't know what that % is, but we have courts that are deciding these cases every day. The actual court cases are more complex to analyze because lack of adequate council or other factors might influence outcomes. However, of people who attend their interview, about 44% are determined to not have a credible fear.
Protection rackets are pretty big in central america. Look at the publicity about the avocado industry. Protection rackets only work when you go after those people that escape your 'protection' payments. So yes, it's reasonable to assume every person that said no to the racket and fled to the US becomes a pretty big target, it's part of the founding principles/business model of running a protection racket.
So you are saying that anyone who leaves central america can never return home because they would then be murdered? I don't think you are saying that, because people move back and forth from central america every day without being murdered.
An awful lot of people move every day, even from areas where there are protection rackets. Do the protection rackets kill everyone who comes home to visit after moving to another city? How do they keep track of who is 'escaping' and who is just moving because they got married or found a job somewhere else? Again, you aren't suggesting that these rackets ban all movement in and out of the areas they loosely control?
People come to the US primarily to find work at a much higher wage than they would be able to find where they are from. Often there is no opportunity for work whatsoever where they are from. They can have a life here that they would never be able to achieve, they can have healthy children who get medical and dental care and will have a chance at an education and a good life here.
If I were in their shoes I would absolutely try to come here illegally if I couldn't do so legally. If I was caught I would, without hesitation, lie and say I would be murdered if I returned home, or whatever else my lawyer carefully prompted me to say, just like Mr Garcia and almost everyone else claiming this. The reality is if these protection rackets were here in the US and not at all in El Salvador, Mr Garcia would almost certainly still choose to live here and just pay the protection money rather than returning home. I doubt that he was ever influenced by gangs in his decision to move here, and I doubt that he has any fear of them if he would return, and I don't think it would change his decision either way.
You based this off of nothing: "he did this by almost certainly committing perjury by claiming there were criminal gangs who would kill him if he returned to El Salvador."
"I don't find it to be credible"
I explained why it could easily be that the many coming from El Salvador when MS13 was heavily active could in fact be making this legitimate claim. It's a small world with social media. Yes, local MS13 that didn't get paid can catch when someone is back in the country. These are very sophisticated/organized gangs at higher level (at least according to the current US administration).
Nothing you said here negates that.
So you believe he is being honest. That's perfectly reasonable. Do you really belief that if there was no threat to him at all he would admit this, stop appealing his deportation order, leave his wife and children behind, give up any possibility of being supporting his family financially and go back to El Salvador?
Which one of our beliefs seems more credible to you, that a man would claim to be in danger (which doesn't hurt anyone) to let him stay with his wife and children and access to employment which pays hundreds or thousands of times higher, or that he would say he's not in danger (even though it doesn't benefit anyone) which hurts his wife and children very badly, and forces him to be separated from his family and the country he has lived in his entire adult life?
The situation he is in is beyond cruel and unjust, but that doesn't mean he's telling the truth.
I'm not going to make judgements on people who say that their life is in danger when I have zero actual facts just 'popular internet factoids' and administration propaganda that conflicts with the actual facts in the court case (they now are claiming he was a human trafficker and that the court order was illegal).
He proved to the immigration court that his life was in danger, to the point that the court ordered he not be removed to El Salvador. What's next, are you going to claim that court findings, experts in the field and based on hearings/evidence/etc, for criminals should be overridden by your gut feelings? Because of course all criminals claim they are innocent, so court rulings should be ignored? This is the friggen slippy slope people talked about. You see that right? Ignore the court order because populist government should have that power based on their feelings. Or because after violating the order the government claims the order was somehow not valid/illegal.
He didn't just make a claim, the US immigration court found his claim valid enough to issue a legally binding order that he can not be return to El Salvador. The President ignored the process for overturning that order, the President ignored the order itself, and sent this person not only to El Salvador, but to a prison solely housing the M13 members that the United States Immigration court found legally were a risk to this man's life.
I don't think you are bothering to read anything I've said. I've said over and over the court order should be followed, because the rule of law is essential and the court order must be followed regardless. I also think he's lying.
You are allowed to form your own opinions also, you don't just have to read a news article and then try your best to update your thoughts to conform to the daily talking points for whichever side you follow.
And I have said over and over that blanket judging people on at best second hand knowledge but mainly hearsay and assumptions is evil, and the root of evil. In society we have to setup systems and work to make those systems work, not place the burden of the systems imperfection on random people because of ltbarcly3's non-direct fact based feelings.
You went pretty low in your comment by the way. Really shows you operating out of your feelings. Which is understandable, we are all human. But also shows maybe you shouldn't be making life or death judgements of other people.
BTW I think our immigration system has been HEAVILY abused by Democrats to get immigration policies they can't any other way. That they exploit more conservative people like me's empathy to create a loophole. That doesn't mean I judge the people that came here and placed determination of their life in our system, I blame the Democrats, and I try to change the system. Not condemn random people caught up in that. I want change, but this is the absolutely wrong way to go about it. I don't want a soul crushing machine running my country. I want the USA I grew up loving, that my family sacrificed for. The shinning beacon on a hill. And I'm not for turning off that light just because it's hard. Having civil rights is hard and expensive and nuanced.
I will ALWAYS try to learn and incorporate new thinking/understanding of events. Not sure how that is a shortcoming. It's actually really hard and uncomfortable.
I'm not going low at all. If you actually read my comments:
I think:
- he's lying about being in danger, but I also say that is reasonable for him to lie and I would do the same thing without hesitation
- it's unjust, unfair, and cruel to deport him after half his life and entire adult life, and his wife and children here
- that legally he should *NOT* be deported while his deportation order is on hold because that is what the law says
- that legally he should (and probably would) eventually be deported since that is just what the law says and he was ordered to be deported already, and that is literally what 'temporary' implies (the rule of law cuts both ways)
- I never condemned the man or made any unfair assumptions about him. I certainly never said or implied at all that he was a criminal, that he had any relationship to any gang, that he should have been deported extra-legally and put in a foreign prison without trial, because that is all insane. I said his rights WERE violated, but specifically that his right to due process was not violated (he did have a trial already and lost). (Being returned to your home country is not a punishment and it doesn't deprive you of any rights, excepting if you have already become a citizen).
So my point, if I made it poorly, is that this individual being deported is not a legal injustice against him, most likely he should be deported under current law, and most likely he would have been deported in the next year or two in any case. The injustice here is that his deportation was carried out extra-legally and in defiance of the law and that the US is complicit (or really actively causing) humans to be jailed without due process or really any process.
That means that he was a father, that he was (or was not) a member of MS13, that he had (or didn't have) a job, that he was a nice man (or not a nice man), that he love (or hated) his mother, that his kids are honor students (or hoodlums) is all irrelevant and nobody should care about it in the context of what is going on. He was here illegally, but he was also legally allowed to stay for a little while longer. That any person was extra legally handed over to a foreign government with instructions and payment to imprison them without trial is beyond unacceptable.
I don't know what's low about any of that. It's very hard to comment in an online space on political issues because people, in general, do not use their ability to read and comprehend. They read the first 5 words, assume that the rest is either "good" or "bad" depending on whether it's leaning towards the opinion they read from whichever outlet conveys to them the talking points for their political party, and then they react by repeating those same talking points. If you have an opinion that is anything but repeating what one of the two approved opinions is that day people really fail to cope with that.
"you don't just have to read a news article and then try your best to update your thoughts to conform to the daily talking points" is going low.
"I think: - he's lying about being in danger" - this is the basic premise you have made this entire time. Yet you also continue to claim:
"I never condemned the man or made any unfair assumptions about him"
Your entire premise is a blanket judgement should be applied to people seeking asylum as to them being liars, based on 'because of course they are'. While I agree that there are strong incentives to lie, I don't use solely that incentive to then baseless claim 'he and all asylum seekers are lying' like you continue to do. We have immigration courts and people directly responsible for determining this better than you or I. They determined the threat to his life was real enough to put a stay on him being sent back to his home country even though they denied his asylum claim. My 'current days talking point' position is that in America we don't apply blanket assumptions like this, and that we have a system of rules, laws, courts, and judges that make those determination. A truly toxic position to hold today I guess because... something unrelated to current talking points? I've held this position my entire life. As did every single person around me. From conservative grandfathers that fought in WW2, to hippie parents, to teachers, to... basically everyone until recently. But I'm adopting the current day take?
I think 'all members of XYZ immigrant group are liars' is a horrible take, and has led us down bad paths in the past. Using that claim to bypass due process, in situations where people's actual lives are in danger, because the Constitution/due process/the American way is expensive and takes too long is a popular take/is too hard on the scale of an entire country full of people, I just don't share it.
I can't reply directly so I'll reply here:
It's not that they should be assumed to be liars, I never meant that.
It's that there is no reason to listen to what they say. Either they can provide evidence that they deserve asylum or not. Everyone would say they should get asylum.
If they were not in danger: they say they were in danger
If they were in danger: they say they were in danger
Since they say the same thing either way, it is pointless to even factor in what they say. Some people are telling the truth, some people are lying, they all say the same thing so what someone says has no information value.
When making the initial determination on whether to allow someone to stay in the country, they do not have to show evidence, they just have to make a credible claim, and about 85% of those claims are accepted. Then later they have to show evidence at their interview and hearing. Of the people who pass the bar for the initial claim about 90% are not actually granted asylum, but about 80% drop out of the system (although the numbers don't prove they were lying because there are other factors). So initially 85% are approved (like the person in question here) and then later only 10% of those people actually show sufficient evidence of a credible fear. This doesn't prove that most of them are lying, but of all the people that claim they are in danger to be allowed to enter/stay 90% don't back it up with evidence, and 80% don't even complete the process, which I think is very strong evidence that a substantial majority are lying (even if you give the benefit of the doubt and think that maybe 50% of them can't complete the process because they don't understand it, lack resources, etc, that is still 50% that were lying).
It's notable that during covid, when claiming you were in danger did not give you an easy way to enter the country immediately, people also stopped claiming they were in danger.
Finally, it is probably important to quantify what 'danger' actually means. Is it a 10% chance of being killed? 1%? 1/1000? Does going home have to be more dangerous than the transportation to get there? Does it have to be more dangerous than riding a motorcycle? The murder rate in El Salvador is currently lower than Baltimore, a LOT lower. It's beyond unreasonable to defer deportations to a place if it's safer than where the person is staying now.
You've said he's "almost certainly committing <criminal> perjury". Based solely on the category of immigrant that he is. I think that is abhorrent, un-American, and violates the Constitution. In the USA 'all men' are created equal, and our rights apply to 'people' not just 'citizens' (a class that the current regime now wants to redefine to not include natural born Americans, forget slippery slope we're now on a water slide).
You keep trying to justify your claim with 'we need to categorize/make determinations on these groups because reasons' but not engaging with that you think we should categorize a class of immigrants as perjures simply because of the class they fit in' because to do otherwise makes immigration policies hard/able to be abused'. We used to believe as a nation in the theory we would rather that 10 criminals go free if it prevents one innocent person from going to prison. I get it's hard, and it has negative impacts to follow our Constitution and what our nation believes in. It's so hard that people have had to die to secure those things. It's so hard that my grandfathers faced crippling life long injuries fighting for their belief in it in WW2. My understanding it's hard doesn't mean I think we should just throw it away. Blanket 'xyz people are criminal liars' has no place in the United States of America. Systems that are aware of the incentive to lie, sure. But that is why we have courts and a rule of law, not labels on entire groups of people. That Democrats allowed abuse doesn't mean we give up on what America is. You can keep giving me bullet points but your basic premise is so flawed to me they don't matter.
Imagine you were talking about the Chinese in the U.S. in the 1800s. You’d have the same kinds of bullet points,claims about fraud, about them being impossible to integrate, claims it just too many people, about systems being overwhelmed. That’s how we got the Chinese Exclusion Act. A whole race of people labeled suspect by default, stripped of legal protections, barred from citizenship, and assumed to be lying just to get in. It was wrong then, and it’s just as wrong now. Policies built on fear and group guilt erode everything we claim to stand for. If we don’t push back against that, we’re not protecting our country we’re abandoning it.
I'm going to keep it very simple for you:
I said I think it's unfair and cruel that he is being forced to leave at all. I think it's immoral. I also think he told the story that let him stay with his family rather than the truth, and I don't fault him if he did do that. Anyone would do that.
I think you should, for practice and because it would help you be a better person, try to have a disagreement with someone without thinking they must be racist. I think it would be new for you but I think it would be healthy to try it.
Remember when you said you didn't go low? Look at your last paragraph.
I don't think you are racist, I never called you racist, but I think what you are saying is wrong and is the type of group guilt assignment that has been used for very f'd up stuff in the past and not how we do things in the US. Again, your entire premise is he's lying because of the class he is in. That is the slippery slope that I am calling out. Your own words. You didn't judge him unfairly you say, you just said he committed criminal perjury based on your knowledge that he's a foreigner seeking asylum. I said that the system should be structured to recognize the incentives to lie, but we shouldn't judge people based on their class, you continued to say all foreigners seeking asylum are probably liars, especially your original example individual, based SOLELY on that he is a foreigner seeking asylum.
I explained my reasoning. And I even said I agreed that the Democrats have broken the system, and that the courts needed to be structured to account for the incentive to lie. But I didn't like classifying a group/class of people liars based on their class. 'All poor people steal because they are poor and have incentive' is basically what you are saying. 'All people in Alabama are dumb, Bob is from Alabama, Bob's dumb'. Nah, I refuse all of that, labeling a group, assigning a characteristic because Bob's a member of a group. I never just tried to shout you down saying 'racist', I responded in way too many words :)
And again you resort to the low, personal attacks. Super lame, basic internet dig you gave there too. Because I quoted your words back at you and I don't think in the USA we should classify groups as guilty.
You are calling me a racist and saying I'm somehow responsible for attacks on chinese people 100 years before I was born. It's so lazy and straw-man, you don't seem able to honestly engage with what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is that if you can show that it is very likely that 99% of the people from Alabama are dumb (this is not true but for the sake of argument), and Bob is from Alabama, there's approximately a 99% chance that Bob is dumb if you don't know anything else about Bob to improve your estimate. This is just true, and it's obvious, and if you read what I said it's exactly how I framed it (he's very likely or almost certainly lying). This isn't because of class, or race, or age, or whether they are trans or whatever else.
One more time:
People come to the border or get caught in the US without a visa. If they say "I'm in danger" about 85% of them are allowed to stay in the US while their claim is processed. Of those people who stay, only 10% end up being approved. 10% are denied, and 80% don't show up for the interview, get arrested for something else, self deport, etc. So best case, if you trust our judges, half are not credible. Since the 20% that show up probably, on average, have the best cases it's a fairly safe bet that the 80% who don't show up wouldn't break 50/50, maybe more like 80/20. So 74% would be found not credible (10% who are denied with interview, and 80% of the 80% who don't show up), 26% credible. That's a pretty overwhelming majority who are not making an honest claim. But again, if we just go with the numbers we know, it's 50/50, half are lying (or if you prefer "making an incredible claim they are unable to support with plausible evidence").
No, I said that blanket judgements like you are making are what led to the US to write ahorant legislation against the Chinese, the closest parallel in our nation's history where language like yours have been used to talk about immigrants to reform the system, not some random strawman example. I'm have not said you support that. I said 'here is a very related example language similar to yours went down the slippery path I see your language could'. It's been nothing about you. Your pseudo-statistics are BS. We have immigrant courts/judges we don't use personal rough pseudo statistics to judge people as criminals (in this case criminal perjurer). Down your pseudo statistics path lies not only racism but vigilantism (citizens proving someone a criminal based on very weak premises) where the majority number of your 'statistics' zero actual finding is made only assumptions of guilt. I agree it's plausible that large numbers of asylum seekers are gaming the system. I agree the the Democrats probably facilitated abuse of the system because they can't get the immigration policies they want. I think it's bullshit and un-American to extend that to 'This random dude is a criminal perjeror' based on only that.
You don't seem to be able to comprehend my basic argument. I concede that there are incentives to lie and the system should account for that, but that we shouldn't label a class criminal perjurers because down that path lies nothing good. I've given you more response/good faith than you have me. You keep saying you haven't labeled this man anything but then call him a criminal perjurer and imply his grounds for being in the country are bullshit. But other than that, yeah, you haven't called him anything. All based on 'he sought asylum'.
You say 10% are approved, which matches Americas past 'We would rather 10 criminals go free than 1 innocent person imprisoned'. By your words it sounds like this is a part of America's thought about itself/it's character that you don't agree with. (Now talking about your personal judgement).
If half the people are lying, then half are criminal perjurers. I'm not labeling a class, I'm just believing what the numbers say.
You keep insisting that I'm making broad racist claims about a group of people, over and over.
You seem to think I have some secret agenda to support Trump or his policy, and you keep arguing as though arguing against that agenda is the same as arguing against what I'm saying. This is why I say you aren't honestly engaging and you are repeating talking points. I don't have a secret agenda, I'm a registered Democrat and I've never voted for a Republican as far as I can remember. I also think that most people claiming asylum are not being honest, because that's just what the information I have available clearly suggests.
You want to pick an arbitrarily impossible standard of evidence which is not reasonable and not even used in actual courts when evaluating whether testimony is credible or honest (that there is a criminal perjury conviction). People are caught lying in court every day, even when that's obvious and provable they are rarely (as in almost never) pursued for perjury charges.
Frankly at this point it's clear that you kindof agree with what I'm saying, that a lot of people lie in this process, and it's not the ground truth you are disputing but rather you want me to not say it because it might have consequences if we say things like this, but also you think the system needs to be reformed to address this problem, but also we shouldn't admit there's a problem.
Combined with "oops can't get them back" it's very powerful. Combine it with not advertising faces of snatched people on broadcast TV, and it's a very useful tool inded. People will just disappear. It won't be legal or illegal, just a thing that happens from time to time. Police won't search too hard for the missing people, because no good can come out of finding out.
Kinda similar in a way to China or Russia “disappearances”