> They are better off than 95-99%% of the world's population
Who themselves are miles ahead the entirely of work population that ever lived on this planet before XXth century, but that doesn't make their life any better, does it?
> Our people are largely ungrateful and have lost the point entirely.
You aren't entitled any gratitude from people, especially not on the basis that there lives is being made a bit less miserable because of policies you oppose. Maybe I would deserve it slightly more, because at least I'm voting in favor of these policies, but I don't think anyone owes me gratitude whatsoever.
> To live always comfortable is not the point of welfare.
I'm not arguing the opposite, but you did insist that these people lived comfortably. This is obviously BS and I'm glad to see you're retracting it now.
> Seeing as you're swatting away my opinions and personal experience as propaganda, I don't think there is any way to get a fruitful discussion out of this. I don't think we should lower welfare benefits. I just think we're being nationally out of touch with reality.
Whatever your opinions (which BTW are as valid as mine, by definition of being opinions), you started this conversation with factual lies (which, on the opposite, isn't OK) about people “easily living” on welfare. I give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not make this lie on purpose by yourself, and given that this is a recurrent trope of right wing politicians on TV, it's fair to assume that's where it came from.
> Who themselves are miles ahead the entirely of work population that ever lived on this planet before XXth century, but that doesn't make their life any better, does it?
Eh. I‘d argue the average dirt poor Indian right now isn‘t far off from your 1800‘s Chinese rice farmer.
> You aren't entitled any gratitude from people, especially not on the basis that there lives is being made a bit less miserable because of policies you oppose.
This is untrue and I‘m not sure where you’ve made this observation. I wholly support these policies for German people. I have voted for a lot of them in the past and I‘m not a conservative. I love my country and the people in it and I voted progressive in every election I could.
Which is why I‘m getting angry when people spread straight lies that our people on welfare here in my country regularly go without food or live in awful states of disarray and poverty. We provide so much to people and I‘m proud of it. But I‘m also realistic in the way that we can‘t provide this level of welfare to just any outsider, and that welfare is not supposed to provide a life of leisure activity.
> I'm not arguing the opposite, but you did insist that these people lived comfortably. This is obviously BS and I'm glad to see you're retracting it now.
Nowhere in this thread did I state such a thing. I merely said they and their children their basic needs met, which is true. I‘m sitting in my office right now while my partner - an elementary school teacher - fills out forms for the kids in her class with parents on welfare, for them to be provided with any needed materials and money for overnight school trips. I love this. This is good. I didn’t have the privilege when I was a child. How are these people struggling exactly? They live in Munich, the most expensive city here, in one of the most expensive parts of the city, on welfare.
> , you started this conversation with factual lies (which, on the opposite, isn't OK) about people “easily living” on welfare.
Prove where I said anything about easy living. Quote me. It‘s you who is lying and I‘m getting annoyed by this conversation.
> I give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not make this lie on purpose by yourself, and given that this is a recurrent trope of right wing politicians on TV, it's fair to assume that's where it came from.
Nice resort to ad hominems. Note that I have spared you these baseless attacks. I would have expected you to keep this standard up as well. How disappointing. Maybe consider that differing opinions are not always propaganda you might read in the Bild, but sometimes come from people‘s real experiences.
I came out of this system and fought my way out of it. You‘re denying me not only these anecdotes but you and other posters in this thread also argue against information that can be easily found on our official webpages for welfare, all because you assume I‘m some kind of far right idiot. I‘m a bit sad for you honestly.
> Eh. I‘d argue the average dirt poor Indian right now isn‘t far off from your 1800‘s Chinese rice farmer.
Look at life expectancy and infant death, it's night and day. People really tend to underestimate how world changing antibiotics and vaccines really are. And most of those “dirt poor Indians” have mobile phones too!
> How are these people struggling exactly?
You really need to build up empathy and open your eyes to the world, look at them, listen to their stories and you'll hear the struggle. Here are a few examples from the top of my mind: the constant fear of being sanctioned because they did something deemed “wrong” by the administration, is one easy example. The contradictory requirements they need to meet. The struggle to get those benefits in the first place (try interacting with the administration when you're not fully literate, or barely speak German). The lack of any financial mattress in case of trouble, which makes even minor issues critical (an example which happened recently to someone I know: you need to comply with rules in order to get your benefits, but one day your old car break and you cannot afford to repair it, but you also cannot comply anymore without it and risk losing money). It's about having no food left in the fridge 3 days before you get your benefits and cannot buy new before it comes in. Everyone has their story, and they are depressing. But to accept that those struggles are real, you need to make the effort of looking at it.
> Prove where I said anything about easy living. Quote me. It‘s you who is lying and I‘m getting annoyed by this conversation.
I've explained that in another comment: I just mix you up with another user whom I was responding to when you replied and took his side, so I mistakenly assumed you where the original guy.
> Maybe consider that differing opinions are not always propaganda you might read in the Bild, but sometimes come from people‘s real experiences.
You are the one asking “how are those people struggling?”, it's easy to assume people don't struggle when it's not directly visible. You are the one arguing that something which exists (poor people being poor and having constant difficulties) doesn't in fact exists. In a way you are telling me that the people I've witnessed, don't exist!
So yeah I blame propaganda because the reasonable reaction to someone telling you “this thing exist” isn't to say “no it doesn't exist”. The line of reasoning “I've never seen that so it must not exist” is not how the human brain works in general. Even flat-eathers don't believe the earth is flat because they've never seen it round, they do believe that because of a socialization process: other people told them it was false, and so they started questioning it and liked the idea.
> all because you assume I‘m some kind of far right idiot. I‘m a bit sad for you honestly.
I never mentioned anything about you being far right. You see, you too are being confused between different HN users;)
> You really need to build up empathy and open your eyes to the world, look at them, listen to their stories and you'll hear the struggle
I do and I have empathy. Everyone has their own struggles. I see no reason why welfare should reduce struggle to zero.
> the constant fear of being sanctioned because they did something deemed “wrong” by the administration, is one easy example.
Bürgergeld was introduced to deal with these restrictions and even if it's now appended form is still less restrictive than Hartz IV ever was.
> The contradictory requirements they need to meet.
I'm afraid this is just German inefficiency and beurocracy in disguise.
> you need to comply with rules in order to get your benefits, but one day your old car break and you cannot afford to repair it, but you also cannot comply anymore without it and risk losing money
I would be very interested in these rules, because last time I googled, the Arbeitsamt supplies a car if you need it with up to 15k Eur in value.
> It's about having no food left in the fridge 3 days before you get your benefits and cannot buy new before it comes in.
Again, we have food and soup kitchens. I've been there myself. You just have to get over your internal self inflicted shame. There is nothing to be ashamed of when you're going there and the staff there were nothing but friendly, if a little stressed last time I went.
> Everyone has their story, and they are depressing. But to accept that those struggles are real, you need to make the effort of looking at it.
I know those struggles are real. But more often enough, we do have ways to deal with them.
> You are the one asking “how are those people struggling?”, it's easy to assume people don't struggle when it's not directly visible.
As I see it, most of those struggles are either self inflicted due to shame or rise from missing knowledge on how to navigate the system when you're in need.
> In a way you are telling me that the people I've witnessed, don't exist!
They certainly do exist. But there are solutions for almost every one of their problems. You just have to work together with the people at the Arbeitsamt, which many don't.
No one has to go hungry or cold in Germany and I stand by this firmly.
> Bürgergeld was introduced to deal with these restrictions and even if it's now appended form is still less restrictive than Hartz IV ever was.
How is that supposed to go in favor of your argument?
> I'm afraid this is just German inefficiency and beurocracy in disguise.
It is, but it's not just Germany. I know Germans love to complain about their bureaucracy like they love to complain about Deutsche Bahn, but it just shows their lack of foreign experience…
> Again, we have food and soup kitchens.
I address that in the other thread: only if you're lucky to have one nearby.
> I know those struggles are real.
You suggested the opposite in the previous comment so which is it?
> As I see it, most of those struggles are either self inflicted due to shame or
“Lazy poor people who can't just hire a layer like anyone else”
> No one has to go hungry or cold in Germany and I stand by this firmly.
“They just happen to chose to go hungry or cold because they are dumb”