Seems like the US is very involved in others' business for such an "independent" spirit.
E.g. Switzerland (a country I'd argue as having a far more genuine independent spirit) was labeled as a currency manipulator by the US [0], despite the designation being fairly arbitrary, and you know, her being her own country (and so surely subject to her own laws).
What you're describing as "independence" looks a lot more like "rules for thee are not rules for me", which the US just happens to have the privelage of preaching due to its preeminent position in the world.
Currency manipulation is meant to benefit the country doing manipulation (in this case Switzerland) at the expense of another country (in this case U.S.)
It's very much the role of U.S. government to protect U.S. from other countries trying to do harm to U.S., be it by bombing U.S. territory, tariffs on U.S. goods or currency manipulation that economically hurts U.S.
You could present an argument that Switzerland wasn't trying to harm U.S. economically via currency manipulation but instead you're trying to delegitimize the very idea that U.S. can defend itself from other countries trying to harm it economically by pretending that it's purely internal affair that has no effect on U.S.
Currency manipulation does hurt U.S. and that's the reason U.S. has the right to push back on it.
I said Switzerland was labelled a currency manipulator - its attempts to devalue the Franc was in response to the sharp rise in its value as a result of Covid and the markets plowing money into safe-haven assets. This presented a real problem for the country at the time, and the primary dynamic at play wrt exports in the country is actually between CHF and EUR, not CHF and USD. The US designation was widely considered arbitrary iirc, putting Switzerland into the same grouping as countries like China, which have vastly different reasons for devaluing their currencies, and arguably ones more in line with what the US was actually supposedly targeting.
So I haven't claimed that Switzerland is a currency manipulator, nor that this would be a good thing, nor that its efforts to devalue its currency had anything to do with the US. I don't see what the contention is here - unless it's that only the US is allowed to be "independent" (i.e. above all international law), here wrt the ICC, while other countries must curtail what is in their national interests (like not having their export markets decimated) for fear of provoking this one special, privileged land?
If the argument is that the US can enforce its agenda on other countries and they must just suck it, then sure. But that's not an argument about fairness or what's right, that's an argument about what to expect from the actor with the biggest stick.
yes we independently decide to invade other countries for no good reason and independently decide to extrajudicially murder people the president doesn't like, I'm so very glad
The reason has nothing to do with "independence". It is that the US has the death penalty for this, and they want to kill people who commit war crimes.
At least that was the reason I was given in the US military. YMMV
I wouldn't believe anything the military tells you about justice.
The US military told people whatever they needed to tell them to follow orders. That's why they follow unlawful orders like those to extrajudicially blow up non-combatant US citizens abroad, and imprison people in Guantanamo for decades without trial, assist the disarming of innocent US citizens in NOLA in the aftermath of Katrina, blackball soldiers in Vietnam that reported war crimes, and all manner of other things that hardly anyone seems to be held to account for.
> The ICC is intended to complement, not replace, national judicial systems; it can exercise its jurisdiction only when national courts are unwilling or unable to prosecute criminals.
Interesting. Thanks for posting that. I hope the US will always prosecute war crimes of its own soldiers, but I'm skeptical--I don't think that's how war and power work.
> It is that the US has the death penalty for this, and they want to kill people who commit war crimes.
> At least that was the reason I was given in the US military.
That's obviously nonsense. For many reasons:
(1) ICC jursidiction does not supercede national jurisdiction that is actually exercised—that's explicitly a basis for ICC jurisdiction not to be applied (it can be applied in the case of sham proceedings designed to provide cover). So it wouldn't stop the US from trying, and applying the death penalty to, any war criminals.
(2) The actual reasons for the the US opposition, including Congress passing a law threatening the ICC, are matters of public record, and are much more about the US wanting impunity for accused (American) war criminals than any fear of inadequate punishment.
(3) The US response to its own war criminals that it has had the opportunity to punish since the establishment of, and its refusal to join, the ICC has shown a singular lack of capital punishment. And even the occasional Presidential pardon after conviction.
Even for US military propaganda directed at is own personnel, that's pretty lazy, low-effort stuff.
Every country tries that on a regular basis. The US might have more power on the world stage, but everyone tries it once in a while. If you look at history the US has been very restrained with using their power (which isn't a high bar)
Do you also think it's hypocritical that the Dallas Cowboys try to sack the other team's quarterback even though they don't want their own quarterback sacked?
The Dallas Cowboys operates according to team rules that encourages such violence. The entire point of international cooperation is to prevent the sort if wonton violence our military engaged in the last 80 years.
God willing, someone in this country or in another one will work up the nerve to erase such a malignant cancer out of existence eventually.
No man is an island, and no country is either. You live in an international community, whether you like it or not. You can choose to be a rogue state, but it doesn't reflect well on you.
Seems like the US is very involved in others' business for such an "independent" spirit.
E.g. Switzerland (a country I'd argue as having a far more genuine independent spirit) was labeled as a currency manipulator by the US [0], despite the designation being fairly arbitrary, and you know, her being her own country (and so surely subject to her own laws).
What you're describing as "independence" looks a lot more like "rules for thee are not rules for me", which the US just happens to have the privelage of preaching due to its preeminent position in the world.
[0] https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/switzerland-branded-as...
Strange framing.
Currency manipulation is meant to benefit the country doing manipulation (in this case Switzerland) at the expense of another country (in this case U.S.)
It's very much the role of U.S. government to protect U.S. from other countries trying to do harm to U.S., be it by bombing U.S. territory, tariffs on U.S. goods or currency manipulation that economically hurts U.S.
You could present an argument that Switzerland wasn't trying to harm U.S. economically via currency manipulation but instead you're trying to delegitimize the very idea that U.S. can defend itself from other countries trying to harm it economically by pretending that it's purely internal affair that has no effect on U.S.
Currency manipulation does hurt U.S. and that's the reason U.S. has the right to push back on it.
I said Switzerland was labelled a currency manipulator - its attempts to devalue the Franc was in response to the sharp rise in its value as a result of Covid and the markets plowing money into safe-haven assets. This presented a real problem for the country at the time, and the primary dynamic at play wrt exports in the country is actually between CHF and EUR, not CHF and USD. The US designation was widely considered arbitrary iirc, putting Switzerland into the same grouping as countries like China, which have vastly different reasons for devaluing their currencies, and arguably ones more in line with what the US was actually supposedly targeting.
So I haven't claimed that Switzerland is a currency manipulator, nor that this would be a good thing, nor that its efforts to devalue its currency had anything to do with the US. I don't see what the contention is here - unless it's that only the US is allowed to be "independent" (i.e. above all international law), here wrt the ICC, while other countries must curtail what is in their national interests (like not having their export markets decimated) for fear of provoking this one special, privileged land?
If the argument is that the US can enforce its agenda on other countries and they must just suck it, then sure. But that's not an argument about fairness or what's right, that's an argument about what to expect from the actor with the biggest stick.
"Rules based order"
For a country built on dead bodies of independent natives, the last sentence seems disingenuous at best.
yes we independently decide to invade other countries for no good reason and independently decide to extrajudicially murder people the president doesn't like, I'm so very glad
The reason has nothing to do with "independence". It is that the US has the death penalty for this, and they want to kill people who commit war crimes.
At least that was the reason I was given in the US military. YMMV
I wouldn't believe anything the military tells you about justice.
The US military told people whatever they needed to tell them to follow orders. That's why they follow unlawful orders like those to extrajudicially blow up non-combatant US citizens abroad, and imprison people in Guantanamo for decades without trial, assist the disarming of innocent US citizens in NOLA in the aftermath of Katrina, blackball soldiers in Vietnam that reported war crimes, and all manner of other things that hardly anyone seems to be held to account for.
Nothing about the ICC stops the US from executing war criminals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court
> The ICC is intended to complement, not replace, national judicial systems; it can exercise its jurisdiction only when national courts are unwilling or unable to prosecute criminals.
Has the US ever executed an American soldier war criminal?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Day
Interesting. Thanks for posting that. I hope the US will always prosecute war crimes of its own soldiers, but I'm skeptical--I don't think that's how war and power work.
Oh, I'm skeptical as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Gallagher_(Navy_SEAL) is more the norm.
> It is that the US has the death penalty for this, and they want to kill people who commit war crimes.
> At least that was the reason I was given in the US military.
That's obviously nonsense. For many reasons:
(1) ICC jursidiction does not supercede national jurisdiction that is actually exercised—that's explicitly a basis for ICC jurisdiction not to be applied (it can be applied in the case of sham proceedings designed to provide cover). So it wouldn't stop the US from trying, and applying the death penalty to, any war criminals.
(2) The actual reasons for the the US opposition, including Congress passing a law threatening the ICC, are matters of public record, and are much more about the US wanting impunity for accused (American) war criminals than any fear of inadequate punishment.
(3) The US response to its own war criminals that it has had the opportunity to punish since the establishment of, and its refusal to join, the ICC has shown a singular lack of capital punishment. And even the occasional Presidential pardon after conviction.
Even for US military propaganda directed at is own personnel, that's pretty lazy, low-effort stuff.
The US happily enforces its rules on other nations on a regular basis.
Every country tries that on a regular basis. The US might have more power on the world stage, but everyone tries it once in a while. If you look at history the US has been very restrained with using their power (which isn't a high bar)
I don't disagree; the point is it's a little rich to go on about "her own country", "subject to her own laws", and "independence" given that context.
Do you also think it's hypocritical that the Dallas Cowboys try to sack the other team's quarterback even though they don't want their own quarterback sacked?
The Dallas Cowboys operates according to team rules that encourages such violence. The entire point of international cooperation is to prevent the sort if wonton violence our military engaged in the last 80 years.
God willing, someone in this country or in another one will work up the nerve to erase such a malignant cancer out of existence eventually.
Gridiron football is explicitly a zero sum game. Coexisting as sovereign states isn’t, and it would be quite sad to learn any of us see it that way.
This is more like the Dallas Cowboys threatening to shoot up your locker room if you sack their quarterback.
No man is an island, and no country is either. You live in an international community, whether you like it or not. You can choose to be a rogue state, but it doesn't reflect well on you.